|
|
|
|
"If music be the food of love..."
|
Note: To encourage the reading of replies before you post your own, I've removed the "Reply" button from this view. Click on the title of the post to open it and all the replies; then you can reply to the thread!
|
|
| | 0 | 11/6/2011 1:10 PM | She's The Man is on TV! Okay so I'm watching She's The Man right now and still thinking of Twelfth Night! I think it's really funny that the makers of the movie chose to use the names of most of the characters in the play as well as follow the storyline somewhat. I also forgot about the character of Malcolm and his tarantula Malvolio...I think it's interesting that the interpretation of that character for this movie was that he was already in love with Olivia and he had to get rid of Sebastian, who was getting in the way. Also Duke Orsino is super sensitive, whereas the duke in the book...isn't. | | | 1 | 11/5/2011 9:34 PM | A Note About Shakespeare's Works Reading "Twelfth Night" and relating it to the movie "She's the Man" reignited my thoughts on the works William Shakespeare provided. As we've discussed in English classes before hand, one of the reasons Shakespeare is still so well known is because his works were the foundation for many plots and themes in literature that came after him. If one thinks about it, many of today TV shows, movies, and novels have hints of Shakespearean literature, whether it be the conflict of two star-crossed lovers, tragedy and death, or even comedy that was found in "Twelfth Night."
Example: Lion King ---> Hamlet | | | 5 | 10/28/2011 11:05 PM | Theme of Insanity I have noticed, along with most everybody else, that the theme of insanity runs thickly through the plot. Most characters are either deemed insane or their actions prove that they are. For example, Malvolio is described as insane by Maria, Toby, and Feste, while at the same time Toby acts like an insane person while he is drunk. I'm curious as to why Shakespeare decided to focus his comedy around the idea of insanity. Is it because he thought this would be one of the most amusing ways to provoke the audience? Or perhaps it was something deeper, like his own infatuation with this state of mind. | | | 8 | 10/22/2011 1:56 PM | The Good Guys Don't Win I was just thinking about how good people in the play didn't really get their happy ending. Antonio was infatuated with, or at least deeply loyal and affectionate towards Sebastian, but he gets arrested and carted off, and then in the end he gets neither an apology nor a partner to finish the play. Malvolio is the victim of ridicule and deceit, even though he really hasn't done anything wrong other than be a little pompous. His plight and unjust treatment is ignored by his superiors and probably ridiculed by the play's audience. His tormentors do not get their comeuppance and he doesn't even get a lady to be with. Maria and Toby however, bawdy and drunk respectively, trick and imprison Malvolio and Toby tries to take advantage of Andrew's fight with Cesario. Yet they end up married (although I don't know if you can judge them happy). I'm wondering why Shakespeare left these characters, essentially good characters, unfulfilled and unhappy at the end of the play. Olivia, Viola, Sebastian, and Orsino are perfectly happy with their switched partners and transvestite/twin mixups. Why is it that they get to be happy when the minor, though arguable more likable or t least relatable characters are ignored? | | | 6 | 10/16/2011 3:14 PM | Festa!! So, I don't know how integral to the plot Festa actually was... I adore the clown, and he definitely provides some twisted comic relief, but the only real purpose that I concluded he served was to clue the more dense audience members into what exactly was going on. Festa was ironically the fool who knew everything that was going on, but in the end, he hadn't actually made a huge impact on the plot of the play. I believe he was there for comic relief, a hint of dramatic irony, and simply to clue in the audience members to the more subtle aspects of the play. I don't believe he was super integral to the plotline itself. Thoughts? | | | 10 | 10/16/2011 1:40 AM | Why do we see Sebastian so little? While reading Twelfth Night in class, Sebastian has only popped up in the story a handful of times. I haven't finished reading Twelfth Night, so he'll probably show up more prominently towards the end, but for seemingly being one of the main characters, we haven't seen him nearly as much as Viola, Olivia, or even Sir Toby. I feel like the character was a little underutilized by Shakespeare. | | | 1 | 10/9/2011 6:26 PM | Viola's odd love of Orsino During the play Viola falls madly in love with Orsino after just a few short conversations. In Act V, Scene i Orsino discovers that Viola/Cesario married his beloved Olivia (even though it was actually Sebastian who married her) and becomes absolutely furious. Orsino is so furious by this betrayal that he threatens to drag Viola/Cesario off and kill her. Viola, being so in love with Orsino ignores this threat and follows him anyway. Once again Shakespeare has managed to exaggerated love in his works. He made Viola fall so in love with Orsino that she would willingly die at his hands, despite the fact that they don't know all that much about each other. Is Shakespeare making of fun of the lovers e saw all around him during his time? Ir is he simply overcompensating for his lack of it? Either way, Shakespeare's descriptions of affairs such as these are strange to the point of comical in many of his romantic works. | | | 13 | 10/9/2011 5:46 PM | A flaw in the text? In the final scene, there are a couple of times where the Duke refers to Viola as "boy" or "Cesario." (mind you this is AFTER viola has revealed who she really is.
In First hour, chisnell asked if this was perhaps a mistake or flaw in the text...but i'm having the tendency to disagree. The theme of homosexuality has been tossed around a little bit, and i personally think its being used in full force in this particular section. When reading it, i took it to transfer into the Duke not wanting to think of Viola as anything but a man, because he goes "that way" as chiz would say.
Thoughts?
| | | 8 | 10/9/2011 5:40 PM | Olivia I've decided i dont like Olivia that much. She seems kind of miserable. I mean morning for a few months is one thing, but for seven years! That is a long time to mourn. I almost feel as if she wanted an excuse to be miserable, and have people feel pity over her. | | | 2 | 10/9/2011 5:07 PM | Sebastian and Olivia In Act IV Scene iii Sebastian is approached by the beautiful Olivia (who thinks he is Cesario) and asked to wed. Although confused, Sebastian agrees without argument. He quickly rules out the possibility of her being insane because if she was, her servants would pay her no attention. So despite the fact that Olivia is very pretty and has retained her sanity, why does Sebastian decide to marry her right on the spot? Is it because of the presents she presented him with? Or because of her wealth? Or even because he spotter a decent opportunity to "get laid"? For me at least, it is difficult to imagine get married to someone i don't know at a second's notice. | | | 1 | 10/9/2011 5:00 PM | Feste's Song
Shakespeare leaves the reader with a sense of uneasiness in the middle of the joy of the conclusion; Feste’s closing song provides some examples. The song is the last in the play, and it is also one of the most depressing, telling a story of growing up to discover the harshness and unkindness of life. | | | 11 | 10/9/2011 4:03 PM | hiding In class, one group brought up the idea of Toby hiding his real personality behind his drunkenness. I sort of agreed that maybe he was not ready to show who he really was, he would rather just hide. Or maybe, thats who he really is, a drunk. | | | 2 | 10/9/2011 3:41 PM | Feste and Malvolio At one point during the play Feste is sent to release Malvolio from his personal prison cell in Olivia's house by Maria and Sir Toby. Instead of releasing him, Feste decides to mess with Malvolio a little bit more by pretending to be two different people, Sir Topas and himself. During their little chat Feste concludes that Malvolio is still too unstable to be let loose. What i find ironic is the fact that Feste judges Malvolio's sanity based on their conversation, while he himself is the one standing in the shadows, pretending to be multiple people, and refusing to rescue a grown man from his captivity. Maybe it's just me, but these actions don't sound like those of a sane man. | | | 3 | 10/9/2011 3:33 PM | Shakespeare = sex This play and most others that shakespeare has made has very strong allusions and metaphores for sex. I think he uses it mostly to his great advantage because all people in the audience wether it was of lower or higher class it related to all of them in a comical way. everyone thinks of sex and we cannot deny our natural instincts and Shakespeare uses it to his full advantage | | | 2 | 10/9/2011 2:45 PM | Are You One A' Them... Homersectionals?
The presence of homosexuality in 12th Night is pretty undeniable. Although Shakespeare never gives any examples of homosexuality outright, he alludes to it pretty heavily throughout the play. The questionably platonic love that Orsino feels for Cesario as well as Antonio's adoration for Sebastian are examples of this. Olivia's love for Viola could be perceived as sapphic, but it gets a little hazy there as Viola is diguised as Cesario. I know some will disagree with me and insist that the love between these characters is purely platonic, and we modern readers have skewed it with our perverse, post-Freudian mindset. That may be true to a small extent, but one also has to keep in mind that the play is a comedy, and William Shakespeare understood one simple fact of the post-Hellenic world: gay jokes are funny. | | | 1 | 10/9/2011 2:38 PM | Feste the Jeste It can certainly be argued that Feste (and other Shakespearean clowns) is there for the groundlings, who, in all likelyhood, were not well-educated or sharp enough to catch all the jokes or completely understand what was really going on onstage. As far as plot; he moves it forward a few times but he's not tied up to another character in the end, so it can be argued he isn't incredibly important to the plot. In third hour it was brought up that clowns (like the the one Olivia keeps) couldn't be struck or beaten up for what they said, and it is obvious in Shakespeare's works that he capitalizes on this to better create humorous dynamics between characters...although in Twelfth Night, Feste isn't the only one fooling around. However, I didn't get the impression that Feste was typical country-bumpkin-comedian. He was quick-witted and yes, he played around with people (the cavalier attitude with Malvolio's letter, etc) but no, he wasn't stupid or juggling anything. I know in other plays, the clowns are usually described physically as looking silly, and were onstage dressed in funky tights and bells to add another layer of ridiculousness to the whole character, but I didn't catch anything in Twelfth Night that explicitly states Feste's appearance as being humorous to look at. He's an "allowed" clown (hired), so he can make open jibes at the families, and he does, but I also never saw him make any profound observations. While he points out to Olivia that she's mourning her brother's soul even though it's in heaven and that's witty and all, that's about as far as he goes. So I'm a little torn about Feste's character - he's not just a stupid fool, he's not very reflective, he's not that important to the plot and yet he's also kind of important for the audience. Thoughts? | | | 1 | 10/9/2011 2:15 PM | The Function of Rhythm in Twelfth Night In 1st hour on Thursday, our class discussed the role of rhythm and meter in the poem "The Man He Killed". We talked about how it adds to the message of the piece, and what the rhythm and structure of the poem symbolize. What I was wondering is the role rhythm played in Twelfth Night. It seems to me that the more educated characters, such as Duke Orsino, have a noble command of language when they speak, and their words are assembled into flawless verse. The less educated lower class, such as Sir Toby Belch, seem to spew their dialogue upon us in jumbled prose. Even the Clown seems to use rhythm to his advantage, much of the time singing ironic songs to the oblivious characters. | | | 0 | 10/9/2011 2:10 PM | Insanity ironies In Act IV, scene ii Maria and Sir Toby have detained Malvolio in a dark, dank room to punish him for his "insane" acts towards Olivia. They ask Feste to talk to Malvolio posing as Sir Topas, a make-believe priest. While Feste converses with Malvolio he attempts to convince him that he is in fact insane, and should continue to be held captive. For example, when Malvolio complains that the room is too dark, Feste denies this and claims that the room is actually full of windows and light, causing Malvolio to doubt his sanity. These acts of cruelty stemming from Maria, Toby, and Feste are the real examples of insanity in my opinion. Malvolio, while abnormal in his expressions of affection, is not deranged, nor does he deserve to be locked up by these three characters. On the other hand, Maria, Sir Toby, and Feste cause Malvolio distress just to have a laugh. By doing this i think these characters prove that they are mentally inept. Three grown adults ceaselessly abusing another man encourages the idea that they are not mentally mature. | | | 7 | 10/9/2011 1:58 PM | Love for the wrong reasons I feel like Duke was in love with Olivia for all the wrong reasons. He was infatuated with her, for her beauty. I think he was also in love with the idea of being in love or having someone to love. This is most evident when he quickly falls for Viola when she reveals to him that she loves him. Malvolio on the other hand is actually in love with Olivia. Ironically he's the only one who doesn't live "happily ever after". He actually go to know Olivia as a person, but unfortunately he was the laughing stock of the group and was tricked many times by them. I really feel for Malvolio and I wish that he would have had at least a little something something at the end of the play. | | | 11 | 10/9/2011 1:52 PM | The Results of Twelfth Night Now that we have finished the play, I have to say that I didn't really love how the last scene served to resolve the plot. It seemed very rushed and forced and honestly, it felt a bit like Shakespeare was getting tired of writing this play and wanted to end it in as brief of a way as he could.
I just don't feel as though the end was genuine. I mean, we spend the whole play with Orsino being so madly in love with Olivia and then in a matter of two seconds, his affection for her becomes non-existent, accepting Viola as his mistress as if it was no big deal. And also, the whole mix up with Olivia and the marriage puzzled me. Just because Cesario/Viola looked the same as Sebastian, doesn't mean that marrying one is the same as marrying the other. Twins are not interchangeable, they are separate people with separate personalities. So why would a scenario like that actually work?
In my opinion, the ending really didn't reflect genuine human emotion in any way. It just seemed to resolve the conflicts for the purpose of ending the story, not for making any real sense. | | | 5 | 10/9/2011 1:30 PM | Why Shakepeare? Why would Shakepeare put in this homosexuality? It has been brought up that maybe Shakepeare his homosexual. But if he was, why would he seem to be making a joke of it? Most of the jokes in this book deal with concept but why does he feel that it will be funny? | | | 0 | 10/9/2011 12:14 PM | Comedy As we discussed in class about what makes up comedy, we came to a conclusion that watching someone else's misfortune is always funny, if there is a happy ending. If the ending isn't happy, then it becomes a tragedy because nothing good comes out of it at the end. We also talked about how uncomfortable subjects can make us laugh, if not directly talked about, such as homosexuality in Twefth Night. | | | 0 | 10/9/2011 11:42 AM | Love? Let me just make a quick aside: As is evidenced in books like Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, loving words did not carry the same weight back in the 1500's as they do now. While we can argue that all of these characters in 12th night really do love each other, if we look at Frankenstein, the monster's creator refers lovingly to his monster, not because he wants to get it on with him, but because he has love for him in a non-sexual way! I think that we keep forgetting that back in the day, love wasn't always interchangeable with sex. And yes, this point is mildly moot because half of the characters got married to each other in the end anyways. But still... | | | 4 | 10/9/2011 11:08 AM | Maria and Toby: Putting the Settling into Settling Down The end of the play had one sticking point for me:
BAM. Toby and Maria are married. One, it came so quickly, two, just WITH to it in general. I suppose there are two ways to look at this sudden plot twist: either it was purposeful and meaningful, or it was just shakespeare trying to marry everyone off in a happy ending and taking an easy and sloppy way out. In the case of the latter, very well, then Twelfth night is not flawless and we can throw the whole thing out the window. Very well indeed. But in the case of the former, things get interesting. IF this abrupt pairing MEANS something, then what is its message? Because we did decide pretty early on that Maria was expressing a more definite interest in Andrew, the younger, better established man, than in his drunkard crony Toby. What does it say about her, and about love, this rather sudden about face. Possibly it is Shakespeare's comment on the practicality adn convinience of relationships: more than any Erotic desire or companionship, Maria wanted to be secure and to marry up: if that meant gross Toby, so be it. Possibly it is Shakespeares comment on the exchange of relationships: Maria wrote the letter, so Toby owed her stability. OR maybe it is a cynical observation of the interchangeability of love: Toby is much like Andrew, just as Sebastian is enough like Cesario | | | 0 | 10/9/2011 10:40 AM | Question #1-Relationship between love of heart, soul, and genitalia So for those of you across the 3 classes who discussed this question, what did you discover? i was in first hour and we just started discussing examples for each character but only got about halfway through the list. anything particularly interesting anyone found? | | | 6 | 10/9/2011 10:26 AM | Homosexual Undertones As we have talked about in class, there are quite a few nods to homosexuality in this novel-- Antonio and Sebastian, Olivia and Viola (kind-of), and in a way, Duke and Caesario. But all of those seemed to be comedic reactions to Viola's cross-dressing. Until, Act 3 Scene1 where Viola basically says to Olivia, 'I'm gay!' Olivia seems unmoved by Viola's statement, and responds only with a, 'Don't worry, I'll turn you!' This seems to be a very bold reaction considering it is the late 1500's. What was the impression of homosexuality at this time? And what was Shakespeare's opinion of it? With men playing ladies playing men and kissing men and all this stuff going on ONstage, what was going after the 'curtain went down?' LOL. Thoughts? | | | 2 | 10/9/2011 10:14 AM | The End The end of this play was a bit of a disappointment. There was no substantial emotion from any of the characters in the play. The entire play had barely any hidden meaning. It seemed to be just a comedy with no real substance. I found all the relationships to be a farse and I was upset because all of Shakepeare's other works were chalk full of emotional and feeling characters. I mean I love a good comedy as much as the next person but from Shakepeare? Not his best genre. I thought the ending was so nothingless. Maybe I'm wrong but I just wish it wasn't to straight forward. | | | 1 | 10/9/2011 10:09 AM | Too many drunk people In act 2 scene 3 there is a big mess of crazy/drunk people. Almost everybody in the scene is obnoxiously drunk or stupid. Everybody is talking over one another while the clown is singing, and the whole scene is just a lot to take in all at once. When a couple of the groups in class performed the scene, it was hilarious and all over the place. There was absolutely no control or order whatsoever. The only person that was sensible was Malvolio and even he could not keep things in order. It was intersting that Malvolio was the only sober one and that may tell us about his character of being maybe more classy or mature than the others. What is sad about this is that they played a trick on him because they thought he was a party pooper, when really, he was probably more in the right because they were just out of hand and being ridiculous. This scene may be a representation of the whole work itself because it is just one big mess. The entire work is full of really sticky situations that are not going to be easy to get out of. | | | 2 | 10/9/2011 10:08 AM | Costumes In class my group chose number 3 for the continuing class discussion. It asked about the deeper meaning on the costumes in shakespeare. First we discussed how the clown is dressed as a fool, but seems to be one of the wisest charecters. His outfit is ironic which suggests a possible theme: maybe society covers up who people really are. Another support to this theme is the drunken fools. They may cover up who they really are by their drunkeness. | | | 4 | 10/9/2011 10:07 AM | Gender crisis In the Twelfth Night, trying to understand who everyone is can be confusing. Orsino, nobleman, is in love with Olivia, a wealthy noble lady. Viola, the main charecter, pretends to be a man named Cesario. Orsino thinks Viola is a man or Cesario, and tells him/ her to go tell Olivia he loves her. The problem Cesario, who is realy Viola falls for Orsino, and doesn't want him to love Olivia. Then Olivia falls in love with Cesario, who is actually Viola. The weirdest part of this whole play is every charecter is played by an actual man. So Olivia is a man, and Viola is a man preteding to be a woman, pretending to be a eunuch. | | | 1 | 10/9/2011 10:02 AM | Act 3: Feste and Viola meet In Act 3 scene 1 Feste and Viola meet. Viola and Feste are both in disguise. Viola is pretending to be a man, and Feste is pretending to be a fool. Viola and Feste both have the ability to see through eachothers disguises. Feste knows that Viola is a woman, even though she never told him. Viola can see that Feste is not a fool, but actually rather clever. These two seem to be parallel in this way. | | | 2 | 10/9/2011 9:59 AM | Labels? So in my opinion Shakespeare seems to be a pretty forward-thinker for his time. Now I don't know if he was indeed gay, but I do believe that he was pretty liberal(in the modern sense of the word) as is evidenced by not only this play, but numerous other works of his where he actually addressed love sonnets to men. People could argue that this is just Shakespeare empathizing with people not him being gay, but the fact of the matter is that he was progressive enough to be open-minded to the gay lifestyle situation. This being said, every time I try and analyze why Viola and Orsino ended up together or what the heck was going on between Antonio and Sebastian I get frustrated and my head starts to hurt. Eventually I think "why does it even matter?! Just leave the characters alone to love who they want! I hate Shakespeare!" And I wonder if this is mayyybe something he was trying to do (not the "hate Shakespeare part" but the whole idea of pan-erotica, where everybody loves everybody and there are no societal rules pressuring one way or the other. Do you think this play may be a very progressive piece that is trying to do away with labels? Or do you think I am reading too much into this? | | | 4 | 10/9/2011 9:58 AM | laughter On friday, my group got the question that talked about laughter in the play. I thought this was a very interesting topic because I hadn't really thought about why laughter was used so strongly in the play. We talked about how as humans, we like dark humor and a lot of laughter was directed to wrong doings and ridicule of others. We also talked about how we laughed because the characters were completely unaware of what was going on in the play, but the audience knew. We also laugh because we can relate to what is happen to characters. I thought all this was very interesting. | | | 8 | 10/9/2011 9:56 AM | Malvolio, the Poor Guy.
So many people have ridiculed Malvolio's stupidity and foolishness, but I say to them, NO. Malvolio was the only character to try and win Olivia over in a NORMAL way. He dressed the way he though she would like, tried to woo her with the smile he thought she would enjoy and was a gentleman to her. Much unlike Cersario/Sebastian and Orisino. And what do they view him as? Crazy. They locked him up! But he was just trying to win the girl. This says much about his character, mabye he was the only person who knew exactly what was going on and what to do. He reminds me of the clown a little bit. Something to think about... | | | 2 | 10/9/2011 9:54 AM | Antonio - Coincidence? I don't know if anyone else has thought about it, but in the play there are many hints towards homosexuality, but perhaps the most obvious is Antonio's affection towards Sebastian. I know homosexuality was not really open or approved of in Shakespeare's time, which is probably just another reason why many people probably found humor in this play. I, however, find it kind of sad, that the one character who one could easily say was gay (Antonio) or else really loved and cared for Sebastian, was arrested and found no love/marriage in the end. The guy he cared for so much was off quickly to be married by another woman! I'm not so sure if this was so coincidental that Antonio was arrested either.... All in all, I think there is a connection here between the final events and homosexuality. | | | 5 | 10/9/2011 9:52 AM | Effects of Genre Labeling As we were answering Chisnell's questions in class Friday, I got to thinking, if we were not told that Twelfth Night was specifically a comedy, would we still think it is funny? Or would we try to analyze it as we would a tragedy, seeing as we are more familiar with Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" and "Hamlet". Simply being told this play is a comedy seems to have blinded us to the possibilities of the play's other purposes. All we can think about is why the play makes its audience laugh, and why Shakespeare intended it that way. Perhaps we need to look at Twelfth Night from a different perspective. | | | 10 | 10/9/2011 9:43 AM | Love v. Lust v. Infatuation So, the fact that by the end of the play Orsino is totally down with Viola, and Olivia is fine with being with Sebastian, made me wonder if any of these characters were ever actually in love. Orsino was either A: Always in love with Viola(as Cesario) and he just didn't want to show it, and his affection for Olivia was always a ruse(think gay beard) or Orsino is just willing to settle for whatever he can get. Also, this ending alludes to that fact that Sebastian never loved Antonio, and that Olivia was never in love with Viola(as Cesario) and she just liked him(her) for her appearance.
Were any of them actually ever in love?!?!?!? Or were they merely infatuated? Or were they in love with the idea of being in love?
| | | 0 | 10/9/2011 9:19 AM | Disguise
Last Friday my group in first hour got the question about disguise; it asked what places in the book disguise is found. We focused on Viola and her disguising as Cesario; we also brought up the priest when he was changing his voice and as he was talking he was messing with the bread. Lastly we were thinking that Sir Andrew and Sir Toby disguise their true personality by being drunk constantly, we were unsure if it was disguising their true personality or their fake personality. Drinking has been known to expose the real person and who they are but we have barely read Sir Andrew and Sir Toby when they are sober so we are unable to know for sure. | | | 13 | 10/9/2011 2:55 AM | Shakespeare's Feeling toward Love My biggest problem with Shakespeare plays (at least the ones I've read) is how easily the characters fall in love. I understand that these relationships are necessary for the play, and that you can't fit a long, drawn-out falling in love process into a two-hour production, but the way characters fall in love makes the story seem so much less believable to me. Romeo and Juliet would die for each other after just meeting; Orsino loves Olivia without ever talking to her (although this could be debated); Olivia falls in love with Cesario after one conversation...about how someone else in love with her! Is this Shakespeare's actual feeling toward love (that love-at-first-sight belief), or is he just rushing the love process so he can continue his story and make a point? | | | 6 | 10/9/2011 2:22 AM | The end. FINALLY. So I was very interested to see how this play would end. Comparing it to "She's the Man" ending, it was pretty much the same. I've always found the ending weird though, for the movie, and now the play too. How can Duke not feel betrayed by Viola? And how can he just forget about Olivia? Isn't it weird to fall in love with someone that you formerly knew as a man? Does that make him gay? That last question is a stretch, but I'm sure it crossed his mind. I feel like this ending is a little bit ludicrous for reality, but then again, this is a Shakespearean play...very dramatic and complex. What does everyone else think about the ending? Isn't Duke's reaction to everything a little weird? | | | 8 | 10/8/2011 11:37 PM | Obssessed with Love Why does Shakespeare always write stories/plays/poems about love? Is love just infectious? Maybe because it realtes to everyone. But it seems that almost EVERYTHING he writes is about love. | | | 5 | 10/8/2011 11:23 PM | Love or friendship? Today in English our duty was to answer a question about Twelfth Night. The group I was in answered number two, and it basically asked to what extent did Shakespeare put homosexuality into the play. My group discussed a scene between Antonio and Sebastien, and we couldn't decide if this conversation was a conversation between lovers or friends. Antonio says things such as "you pierced me through the heart" and words such as "adore". Oliver said that he believed it's through a lovers perspective, but everyone else said it was in a friendly way. I believe that this was in act 3, so what do you guys think? Is this purely a betrayal of friendship or a heartbreak between lovers? | | | 2 | 10/8/2011 10:21 PM | Three to be true In Shakespeare's time, it was believed that in order to be in true love one had to love with heart, soul and genitalia. Our group had the question concerning this and Mr. Chisnell asked us if we believe the same thing today. I definitely don't think that in our generation we even consider all three of these aspects before we say "I love you." Most of the time I think that we eliminate the aspect of loving with soul. You rarely hear about soul mates anymore. And what does that say about our society ? Are we just more concerned about loving with genitalia or have we decided to just compromise ? I don't know, it might be too deep of a conversation to base off of Shakespeare but I just wanted to put it out there. | | | 5 | 10/8/2011 4:17 PM | Viola
Viola’s plan for disguising herself as a young man and seek service with Duke Orsino introduces one of the motifs of the play, disguises and mistaken identity. I viewed Viola’s disguise as something that makes the vulnerable young woman feel more secure in the crazy world into which she inhabits. Also her plan to disguise herself is questionable, there must be other women or men that hire women, and there is no need for her to dress up like a man in order to get a job. | | | 0 | 10/8/2011 1:49 PM | Friday Group Discussion On Friday our group got the discussion topic of how different characters loved with different parts of them. The parts being heart, soul, and genitalia....throughout the book, almost every character has a love of some sort for something. Whether it's Sir Andrew's love for booze, Orsino's love for Olivia, or Olivia's love for Sebastian, all of the characters love something in different ways. Sir Andrew's love for alcohol is more through his soul; not romantic but more passionate and longing. Orsino loves with his genitalia, as he is looking to marry Olivia out of more lust than love. And Olivia loves through her heart and her genitalia, she had true feelings for him but wanted to get married so they could sleep together as soon as possible. | | | 1 | 10/8/2011 11:40 AM | The Ending I have been waiting so long for the ending to come. I have already said it a couple of times, but I was really interested as to how this work would end. Everythimg occuring during the play was very complex, especially the love triangle, and it did not seem like these problems were easily solvable. In some ways, things worked out fine, but some people still got the bad end of the deal, which was inevitable. Malvolio and Antonio for example definetely got the short end of the stick. Also, while Orsino and Olivia got married to Viola and Sebastian, they kind of took a second choice but the married couples still ended up pretty happy. I just think that it is funny how things worked out, especially how Orsino had a complete change of heart and started to love Viola instead of the girl he was drooling over (Olivia) because Viola wanted him. It seems like Orsino was just interested in Olivia for physical reasons after all. | | | 1 | 10/8/2011 10:51 AM | Catharcism in the Play In 6th hour today we were talking about how when things do not turn out fine for a character, it is not okay that they got messed with earlier. I think that it is perfectly fine to laugh or find joy out of a fictional character's misery. The people in plays or movies do not actually have to deal with what happens in the play or movie. There are no actual consequences so it does not matter that we enjoy watching people getting killed or betrayed because the event is not actually happening in real life, it is fake. Now if these terrible things were happening to real people in the real world, and some people found joy in that, then there is a problem, because that is just not cool. Real life has real consequences, and to laugh at someone who's life is ruined or someone who just got seriously injured is just devilish. | | | 2 | 10/8/2011 10:25 AM | The End of the Play I liked the ending of the play. I thought most things were tied up nicely (excluding poor Malvolio and Antonio, who really got the short end of the stick), and I liked the ending "couples". While Orsino may not have loved Viola originally, I think he grew to love her as Cesario and by the end figured "Well, he's a nice guy so I'm sure he'd be a lovely woman!" and married her. This does raise questions about the nature of love, and who's really the fickle one - men like Orsino, who speaks of grand love and yet drops Olivia as soon as something better comes along, or women like Viola, who go to any lengths to get the man that they love? I did, however, feel bad for Olivia - she thought she was marrying Cesario, and like it or not, Viola and Sebastian weren't the same people (obviously). I'm iffy on that last bit, but overall, I thought it was a decent ending. | | | 1 | 10/8/2011 9:27 AM | Viola and her thoughts on Sebastian's "death" I was looking at the play on SparkNotes, the part that translates the language into more modern language, and I noticed that at the beginning of the play, Viola thinks maybe her brother survived! She says, "Perchance he is not drown’d.—What think you, sailors?" She and the Captain think that because Viola survived, maybe her brother did also, even though he was strapping himself to a mast when he was last seen. This could have attributed to the somewhat shocked reaction the two of them had once they were reunited at last, and why they were able to (if we choose to believe it) basically joke around with each other in disbelief and have a mini freak out when they found each other! | | | 1 | 10/6/2011 7:09 PM | The end At the end of the Twelft Night to go further on about why I thought Viola and Sebastian were just going along pretending they didn't know eachother was all to protect the sake of their family. If you think about it back then family was basically the most important thing and your status of your family was everything. I don't think that the citizens of Illeryia would think very good things about Viola and Sebastians family of they found out Viola was basically being an imposter. So I'd have to say it was a smart thing of them to to do keep it under wraps. But apparently giving away didn't matter in the eyes of the other characters. Which I found kind of amusing and thought it was a nice way to end the novel. | | | 5 | 10/6/2011 7:05 PM | Twelfth Night | | | 3 | 10/6/2011 6:52 PM | Antonio and Sebastian? Am I the only one that thought the relationship between Antonio and Sebation was abnomal. Antonio was practically throwing himself at Sebastion, begging for his company. In Act 2, Scene 1, Antonio declares, "If you will not murder me for my love, let me be your servant." He is saying he cares about Sebastian deeply and needs to be with him. At the end of the scene, Antonia says, despite having so many enemies in Orsino's court, that he will follow Sebastion. Despite Antonio caring so much for him, Sebastian does not really feel the same way. Sure, he acts polite and says he cares about him too, but does not invite Antonio to come with him, Antonio just follows. I would normally not think too much of their relationship, but this novel is full of one-sided romances, and loves involving mistaken identity. With romance so strongly integrated into the play, the relationship between Sebastian and Antonio cannot be brushed off as nothing mroe than friends. | | | 10 | 10/5/2011 11:35 PM | Olivia and Sebastian? This is more of a prediction. So, we had discussed in class today that it seems as though Olivia likes Viola//Cesario mainly for the way..."it" looks. I assume at some point Sebastian and Olivia will come in contact, and as he says, he and Viola look almost the same, though she is prettier. Do you think, because Olivia seems so enamored with the way Cesario looks, there's a possibility that Olivia may give up her hopes on Cesario and go after her twin//actually male look-alike instead? | | | 7 | 10/5/2011 7:20 PM | The Song in Act 2 O mistress mine, where are you roaming?
O, stay and hear; your true love's coming, 740
That can sing both high and low:
Trip no further, pretty sweeting;
Journeys end in lovers meeting,
Every wise man's son doth know.
What is love? 'tis not hereafter;
Present mirth hath present laughter;
What's to come is still unsure:
In delay there lies no plenty;
Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty,
Youth's a stuff will not endure.
So I thought that this song was more than just drunken blatherings. If you look at the third line it says 'That can sing both high and low'. I think this is a blatant reference to the fact that Viola is a women pretending to be a man (high and low voice), and he is addressing the song to his mistress, Olivia. The clown goes on to say how unsure the outcome is, but does this song mean that the Clown knows or suspects Viola of duplicity, or is it just a clever joke and dramatic irony that his song fits the plot? | | | 12 | 10/3/2011 8:04 PM | Shakespeare Innuendos I never would have noticed or even thought about the inappropriate double meanings that Shakespeare uses if we had not pointed them out in class. Lines that appear completely harmless and flow well with the play actually have a humorous or even darker meaning. I feel like once we start to act out the scenes in class this week, things will start to come together more after seeing emotion and the physical movements of the actors instead of just reading them. | | | 3 | 10/2/2011 6:32 PM | Sebastian blames Antonio for sister's death? In act two scene one, Sebastian and Antonio begin to speak with one another. It is very weird to me, how Sebastian blames Antonio for the death of his sister. First of all, there is no guarantee that Viola is actually dead and second of all, Antonio saved Sebastian's life! Shouldn't Sebastian be thanking Antonio for saving his life? Maybe Sebastian wanted him to save his sister instead, but she was not there for Antonio to save her. Antonio cannot do anything about this situation and it is not his fault that Viola is supposedly dead. What Sebastian is doing makes no sense, but maybe it is because he is going through a very hard time in his life and he just needs some way to justify this situation by blaming her death on Antonio. It is a very interesting situation. | | | 0 | 10/2/2011 5:41 PM | Orsino and Viola in Act 2, Acene 4 I found the conversation between these two characters to be sort of awkward and filled with irony. When Orsino asks about Viola's "girlfriend", she responds saying she looks and is the same age as Orsino. Orsino says women should marry older men, not the other way around, but Viola could have acttually been excitied about this, giving her a chance with him, since she is younger. Orsino talks to Viola like she is a boy, and I find it surprising that Viola is not offended. Orsino argues that a women's love is shallow, in contrast to Orsino's deep and poweful love for Olivia. Also, at the end of their conversation, Viola conjures up another family member, a sister. Viola says her sister loved a man, like her situation with Orisno, but never acts on it, ruining her. This shows that Viola really wants to admit her love to Orsino, too afraid of her made-up scenario coming true. I thought this conversation was weird because of the disguise, and imagine the characters responses and thoughts were completely different from ours since only we know the whole truth. | | | 0 | 10/2/2011 4:55 PM | Malvolio Irony There are two types of irony accosiated with his being tricked into acted so weird and thinking he has a chance with Olivia. The first is dramatic irony, which is defined as the audience knowing something, and the character(s) not. While Malvolio thinks Olivia likes him because of the letter and also becuase he is egotistical, we, the audience, know this is absurd, since we know who really wrote the letter. The sencond type of irony employed is romantic irony, similar to a paradox. Malvolio acts so calm and mature, yelling at Sir Toby, Sir Andrew, and Feste for being drunk, loud, and obnoxious. Later in that scene, and in later ones, Malvolio is acting foolish, which is what he was critisizing at the men for; he acts weird around Olivia because of the letter. Malvolia acts like he is better and more mature that the rest of the characters, but through Maria's letter, it is revealed that he is just like the rest of them. | | | 0 | 10/2/2011 4:15 PM | Sebastian Foreshadowing
The encounter between and Antonio foreshadows a conflict related to disguise and mistaken identity. As these themes are central to the conflict development, I predict Sebastian will be no exception. Viola's twin brother, Sebastian, did turn up alive, and Viola does not know this, yet. Also, Sebastian thinks Viola is dead, as stated in Act 2, Scene 1. Due to the fact that they are twins, it can be inferred that they look similar. After all, what other purpose would them being twins have in the book? Since Viola is disguising herself as a man, or really a eunuch, I predict there will be confusion between who is who, especially because they think the other is not alive. Olivia could possibly mistaken Viola for Sebastian, and this will create a whole mess of problems. While Sebastian has not served a major role in the play thusfar, his appearance foreshadows furhter conflict and confusion. | | | 8 | 10/2/2011 1:33 PM | Viola and Feste I noticed that Viola and Feste have a lot in common. They are both characters who are hiding something. (Viola really a man, and the Clown really not a fool at all) And the ironic thing is that they are the only two characters who know each others secrets ! I think the fact that they were both hiding something was what made them want to learn more about each other. | | | 5 | 10/2/2011 1:21 PM | Staging I've been thinking about the point in the pay where Viola almost reveals herself to Orsino. Reading this communicated the plot line efficiently, but today in class Chisnell made an offhand comment about the staging, and suddenly I could picture the scene in my head. Viola on one side of the stage, facing into a wing, hand on her clothing, ready to reveal her identity, pulled upward with hope. And Orsino, on the other side of the stage, facing into the other wing, listening to Viola, but absorbed in his own romance. And when Orsino tells Cesario to seek out Olivia, Viola's posture slumping back down like a puppet with it's string broken, and then rushing off stage without ever completing the turn she was on the verge of making. Neither of them facing each other, neither seeing each other (ah! see? Both of them blind, hidden from the other). And seeing how it would be staged increased the emotional appeal and the significance of certain lines tenfold, communicating the tension and the conflict between the characters better. And I think this is something true of most play read as literature: that only in seeing them in their intended form do we get a complete effect. Can you guys think of any other examples? How would you stage them to portray something new? I can't wait to see this at Wayne, I think it will give a whole new dimension! | | | 0 | 10/2/2011 12:58 PM | twelfth night and she's the man so obviously we all know twelfth night is very similar to she's the man, but what i'm wondering is if the ending will be the same as far as olivia and sebastian actually meeting and falling in love and viola reavealing herself and her and orsino fallling in love. any thoughts? | | | 5 | 10/2/2011 12:29 PM | Voraciousness of Passion Orsino says that women don't fall in the same depth of love that men do, that they don't feel as voraciously as fiercely as men do (hohoho sex joke sexjokes).
But Maria just came up with a whole elaborate plan to make Malvolio look stupid and to entrap Olivia. And yes she does it a little bit just to make him look like an ass. But that can't be her lone motivation, she doesn't seem like the type to participate in raucous trouble making just for the fun of it (in fact she has gone lengths to try and stop it). So why does she participate now? I think it is because she has a thing for andrew and she wants to cause the woman he woos trouble, make life a little harder. And maybe she wants to impress him too, showing how she can be fun and clever too, become closer with him.
ANd though I'm not sure this is "true love, it certaintly seems just as voracious and desperate as Orsino's.
I just really like Maria so far. She is chill. see's what she wants, and she is like "Andrew: putcha hand here. Alright. Now lets get together. i'm poor. Bu look, Im clever. marriage naow." | | | 8 | 10/2/2011 12:25 PM | Favorite Quote So i'm at home, reading act 2, scene 5. While reading I came across my favorite quote. Yes, I heard it in She's The Man, which came from this book but I didn't know they got this line from here. I thought it was the movies twist on the story. The quote says, "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. Your fate awaits you. Accept it in body and spirit. To get used to the life you’ll most likely be leading soon." I absolutely love this quote. Not only is it inspirational, but its so hopeful and positive when it doesn't even try to be. If I liked tattoos and ever considered one I would get this tattooed on me. In the book, Olivia says this in her letter to her lover "Viola (that she doesn't know is a girl). In the movie the character portraying Duke Orsino says this at the end. Very different but it works both ways. | | | 2 | 10/2/2011 12:09 PM | Act 2 Scene 2: Viola's Problem In act 2 scene 2 when Viola is alone, she starts to speak about her problem. Throughout her speech she repeats that she is a man a couple of times to remind herself that she is not a woman anymore. She is misleading everbody and she has no clue what to do. First, she loves Orsino, but he cannot know because she is supposed to be a man. Then Oliva loves her, but that cannot work out because she is a woman. This whole plot of hers has some holes, which is now putting her in a huge mess of things where she has nowhere to go. There is no easy solution, so I am going to be interested to see how this will all play out in the end. | | | 4 | 10/2/2011 9:06 AM | Antonio and Sebastian I find Antonio and Sebastian's relationship rather odd. It seems like Antonio is just kind of tagging along with Sebastian and will not leave, he is so dedicated to him. I think this might be because he saved his life, he feels like he must protect it further ? I'm not sure. But on the other side Sebastian finds Antonio incredibly annoying, at least on the surface, however I think that deep down he reciprocates this weird kind of love. I think this mainly because he still allows him to tag along. Anyways, I think this is one of the most interesting relationships in the play because it seems so shifty, and, fitting in with the theme of this play, is not what it seems. | | | 3 | 10/2/2011 12:48 AM | Orsino's Subconscious Discovery Beginning in line 32 Orsino comments on "Cersario's" uhm, small pipe and says he has an organ like a woman. I think this is the greatest irony I have seen so far in Twelfth Night. Orsino just blatantly states the big secret of the play without even knowing it. I also found it unrealistic I suppose that Viola handled it so well, by ignoring that part of Orsino's speech. I think that someone who was undercover would at least have some sort of reaction to even the idea of being discovered. Now, I don't know if it really was a subconscious discovery of Orsinos or just something that one would say about a eunuch, (I don't have much experience with eunuchs.) I know the subconscious mind can pick up on small subtleties without someone being aware of it. | | | 1 | 10/2/2011 12:35 AM | Foreshadowing another play In Act 3 scene 1 I found it funny that the clown, while asking Viola for more money, begs for a "Cressida to this Troilus." I know Shakespeare wrote a play soon after this one called Troilus and Cressida, so I think that he was either subconsciously putting his ideas into this one or was using it as a type of foreshadowing. | | | 0 | 10/2/2011 12:08 AM | Olivia and Malvolio I find the play to be interesting. I enjoy reading the play and the interactions with one another. I love the scene with Malvolio and Olivia talking, and he is quoting the letter that she did not write. | | | 10 | 10/1/2011 8:53 PM | Eyore How does such a sad character like Mavalio fit into a romantic comedy?
WHat role does he play, how is he even possible? hes not funny, he puts a damper on the whole mood.
But this puddleglum has something to say surely, something to contribute.
Im interested to see where his pessimism leads us. Is he JUST a foil? Does he represent a larger concept?
And like Chisnell said, can Eyore fall in love?
Possibly. I mean, why can't there be sad love as well as angry or happy love? Why shouldn't Eyore fall in love?
Maybe because tragic love has a depth that this romantic comedy lacks? But somehow I wish, and think, that Shakespeare's puddleglum will find love. | | | 8 | 10/1/2011 8:34 PM | Drunken Conversations If you didnt catch it, a pretty funny conversation went on between Sir Toby Belch and Sir Andrew Aquecheek in Act 1 Scene 3.
Sir And: What is 'Pourquoi'? do or not do? I would I had
bestowed that time in the tongues that I have in
fencing, dancing and bear-baiting: O, had I but
followed the arts!
Sir To: Then hadst thou had an excellent head of hair.
Sir And: Why, would that have mended my hair?
Sir To: Past question; for thou seest it will not curl by nature
The word "toungues" is pronounced like "tongs", like those of a flat iron for your hair. Sir Belch is quite drunk, and doesnt pick up on what sir Andrew is really saying, and that is why he brings up the topic of hair.
| | | 11 | 10/1/2011 7:53 PM | Why is everyone in love with Olivia?! It seems like she has many of the other characters in the play after her, except of course, the one that she actually wants and is interested in..which she probably wouldn't be as much so if she knew Cesario's real gender. Is there something about this lonely, rich, noblewoman, who is supposedly keeping away from men to mourn her brother and father's deaths, that makes all the boys woo, besides her beauty and the like?! Orsino, Malvolio, and Sir Andrew being the main ones. She doesn't seem all that high and mighty compared to anyone else, so I just wonder what it is about her that makes everyone go crazy. | | | 2 | 10/1/2011 6:12 PM | Antonio So i'm going to start a new topic...because if i have to read another post about sexual innuendos i'm going to go insane.
I'm really curious about Antonios character. I'm not sure where the other classes are, but in first hour we talked about Antonios bad relationship with the city that the story is taking place in. (illyria? or is that the country.) We talked about how it was as if he killed someone. Now what i'm confused about is if this was just an assumption made by Chisnell, or does it state plainly in the text why Antonio is uncomfortable in the city..
If it's not in the text, whats your guys' ideas? | | | 4 | 10/1/2011 5:56 PM | Malvolio's Stupidity After reading the part for Malvolio in first hour on friday, I can't help but sympothize with the poor guy. Yes, he is full of himself. But he has been the kindest of all the gentleman callers to Olivia. Even though the letter he read was fake, he followed all of the things he knew "Olivia" would like! And now they are going to lock the idiot up. Sad stuff going on right here. I wonder if those who pranked will realize how far thier joke will go and the possible consequences that might follow. Poor Malvolio... | | | 8 | 10/1/2011 5:41 PM | Love Triangle Most of the characters in Twelfth Night seem to have love connections. Viola loves the Duke, the Duke loves Olivia, and Oliva loves Cesario. This adds a whole other dilemma to the story. It's a little out of order in the sense that Olivia thinks she likes a man, but it's actually a woman. | | | 1 | 10/1/2011 4:52 PM | Three Aspects of Gender: Related to Viola/Cesario's Situation? I've found an interesting parallel between Viola/Cesario and gender theory. Many people don't consider this, but (if you subscribe to common beliefs in gender studies) every person's expression of gender/biological sex has multiple aspects. There is, of course, your physical sex, which is predetermined by chromosomes, etc. Secondly, there's gender expression, which is what we're seeing Viola toy with. She is presenting as a male, when she is biologically female. Third, there's gender identity, which goes unseen (and is therefore forgotten most frequently). Gender identity has to do with ones internal identity, whether binary (i.e. male or female) or not.
I know that a lot of things come in threes, but I find it awfully ironic that in Twelfth Night, Viola's character has three "levels" of gender: the male actor playing her, her female self, and the eunich she is presenting herself as. Coincidence? Significant? I doubt that Shakespeare himself considered this while he was writing the play, because obviously modern theory wasn't around when he was. But could it give us more insight into Shakespeare's message? | | | 0 | 9/30/2011 9:55 PM | I still have a chance Around line 930, Orsino is talking to Viola about, who else, Olivia. He mentioned something that I found very interesting. He was comparing women to roses in that roses will be open and pretty at one moment and then later that day it will be wilting. So he was saying that a women may be feeling one way at one moment and then at another moment she will feel the opposite. He uses this to basically say that he still has a chance with Olivia because she could change her mind about him. This guy is really desperate for Olivia and he will not take no for an answer. I think it is going to be interestiong to see how far he will go to get Olivia. | | | 4 | 9/29/2011 8:56 PM | She's the Man Twelfth Night is just like the movie She's the Man with Amanda Bynes because Viola wants to work but she would have to be a man/euchid to get the position and so that's what she did; Viola dressed up as a man and is acting like one too. This is just like She's the Man because Amanda Bynes wants to play soccer for an all boys team so she disguises herself as a man and goes to college for the soccer team. | | | 5 | 9/29/2011 8:10 PM | Open Mindedness Like Chisnell said, Twelfth Night encompasses every kind of love and passion, from platonic to eros, from man and woman to "it" and man......... and it is all approached with an eye to humor. But within the humor is also a sense of acceptance....there is no discrimination, no anger, no hate. As much as we are laughing at the idea of Sebastian and Antonio, or Olivia and Viol, we are not rejecting them. Is this a classic example of using humor and laughter to integrate a foreign or "offensive" (although i would not call the differences in sexuality such) into the cultural fabric of the mainstream? And moreover, does this indicate an acceptance and tolerance on the part of shakespeare and his compatriots? Is it possible that the 1600s common folk laughing their heads off at the Twelfth Nights antics were more open minded then our current political spectrum? | | | 1 | 9/29/2011 7:54 PM | Maria In every Shakespeare work I've read, I've picked a minor character to take a fascination with. This totally isn't on purpose; it's just so far worked out that way! For me, Shakespeare's main characters aren't as interesting as the smaller ones he adds in to make snide remarks or have interesting insights. Maria has turned out to be that person for me in Twelfth Night because I think she's one of the most believable characters. She has her own wants and needs and opinions, and doesn't have a problem expressing them, even if she ends up contradicting herself. She'll badmouth Andrew and pretend to hate him, all while probably harboring a secret crush on him she knows will most likely never go anywhere. She'll come yell at drunk and rowdy Toby, Andrew, and Feste, but join in on the fun. She'll play practical jokes on her coworkers and supposed friends. In a play with two strong very important female characters, Maria's a very interesting addition to me. She seems equally as strongwilled and feisty as Viola and Olivia, and has no problem showing that part of her personality. Viola hides her independence by pretending to be a boy; Olivia hides hers behind servants and mourning for her brother (so she doesn't have to talk to anyone she doesn't want to)--Maria does neither and has no problem showing exactly who she is, good sides and bad. I really like believable characters, and I think that's why hers is so interesting to me. She has very obvious flaws, but that makes her so much more relatable than pretty much anyone else in the play--at least so far. | | | 6 | 9/29/2011 3:37 PM | Fool's Gold Shakespeare seems to have a different outlook on the Jesters or clowns in his plays. In Hamlet, the clown who used to cheer him up and make jokes with him was one of the last truely happy memories that Hamlet had of his childhood. When he found out he was dead, a rush of memories came back to him and he remembered what it was like to be an innocent, happy child. The fool in Twelfth Night is actually anything but a fool in the scene where him and Olivia argue over her mourning. He tells her mourning over something that has already happened and can't be changed is pointless. Her Brother is already dead, and there is nothing she can do about it. She however listens to nothing he is saying, because since he is a "fool", his words were meaningless and incorrect. Even though these fools play small roles in the play, their purpose and meaning are essential. | | | 6 | 9/26/2011 8:14 PM | No Love The more I think about his book, or at least the first act, the more sad I think it is. Orsino loves Olivia, but Olivia is busy mourning the death of her loved ones, or at least is using that as an excuse. Olivia then falls in love with Viola, or really Cesario, but Viola is busy loving Orsino. Not to mention, there are a couple minor loves, outside of the love triangle. It is sad how everybody loves somebody else. I use the word love lenliently, however, because there is no mutual love in this play, no proper married couples to provide a good example. The only "love" is one-sided and dysfunctional. I'd also like to point out that Shakespeare chose a love triangle specifically, as opposed to a love sqaure. With a triangle, there are an odd number of people, meaning that if two did get together, there would still be one odd man out. There is no way to make everybody happy with a triangle. This set-up is doomed from the start, and I predict this triangle will fall apart by the end of the novel, leaving nobody satisfied. | | | 9 | 9/25/2011 9:08 PM | Fool I cannot seem to figure out why the fool would be in this play. What is his purpose? He is not wrapped up in the love madness, and he just seems to be in the scenes so randomly placed. He just kinda of appears or is randomly place there. But shakespear would not randomly incoroporate anything...so why is he here? | | | 5 | 9/25/2011 8:50 PM | Gender Expression Within Twelfth Night Considering the time period in which Shakespeare put on this play, it interests me that he chose to write about gender deviance - not something that was taken kindly to in about 1600, if I'm not mistaken. I understand that logically, the storyline couldn't take place if Viola didn't resemble a man, for one, or later her twin brother. But I don't understand why Shakespeare chose to write about crossdressing in the first place, let alone what his attitude toward alternate gender expression was. Was he simply trying to write an enticing plot? Was he going for shock value? Anybody else have an idea? | | | 3 | 9/25/2011 1:17 PM | The Legond of Shakespeare In 6th hour we discussed how, and why Shakespeare is considered literature. One of the main reasons a piece of work is considered literature is if that work is still read 50 years after the author has died. Shakespeare has been dead for hundreds of years and his work is still very popular. Many theaters have done his plays, schools still teach his work, and many movies have been based off of Shakespeare's ideas. For example, The Lion King is based off of the same story as Hamlet, and She's the Man is based off the Twelfth Night. I don't think that Shakespeare's plays, or work, will ever get old because they are always relatable. | | | 8 | 9/25/2011 12:40 PM | Why Illyria? Why did Shakespeare choose Illyria to be the setting? In every play he's written, the setting is always different (to my knowledge anyway). Romeo and Juliet-Italy. Hamlet-Denmark. I think that Shakespeare definitely chose Illyria for a specific purpose instead of "by accident" if you will, but I can't think of what one(s). I'm interested in what others think about this... | | | 1 | 9/25/2011 12:21 PM | Love and Suffering So in most of Shakespeare's plays love is forbidden like in Romeo and Juliet therefore it causes the characters suffering. This is also true in Twelfth Night but not to the same extend. All the characters involved in the love triangle view love as suffering because none of them can be with the one they truly love. Also they love one person and then they have another person trying to love them and they view this as painful. Some of the characters in Twelfth Night also feel cursed because the person they love doesn't love them back. | | | 1 | 9/25/2011 12:07 PM | Irony In every Shakespear play, there is some kind of clown or fool. They are usually the most intriguing charecters, but not because of their humor. In the Twelfth Night, the fool Feste, is ironically smart. Most of the charecters in the play think of him as an idiot, but he isn't. He asks Olivia why she is so upset, and she said because her brother is dead. He then says, oh he is in hell, and she said no he is in heaven you fool. He replies, why are you sad if your brother is in heaven. This is one of my favorite scenes because the fool, fools Olivia. Fools are so lucky because they can always tell the truth, and people just think they are crazy so no matter what they say they won't get in trouble. Therefore they don't have to watch what they say. | | | 4 | 9/25/2011 11:52 AM | Deception I think a major theme of this play is deception, and Shakespeare will show what disastrous consequences it will have. A major link in the love triangle, Viola, is distored in the fact that Cesario does not really exist. Olivia is falling in love with Cesario, but this will ever work because Cesario is really Viola. Also, Viola likes Orsino, but that relationship will not work because Viola is dressed up as Cesario. The fact that Viola is able to successfully pull this disguise off is disturbing, to me anyway. This love triangle will never work because it is based on lies and trickery. I predict this will prove catastrophic when the characters find out who each other really are. I also expect the lies and disguises will develop through the play, to the point that even the reader will have a hard time figuring out what is real and what is not. Each of the characters only know a little bit, and I might find it difficult to keep that straight. | | | 6 | 9/25/2011 11:23 AM | Staging assignment So this post isn't directly related to the story of twelfth night as much as it is to the "staging" assignment we were given in 6th hour. I assume everyone else got the same assignment, but if not, I'll remind you. We were each allowed to choose a scene and then stage it so that the scene had more meaning. Now, being that my group consists of fantastic people who loves to analyze literature, we are kind of goign all out with our scene, and we are taking some weird directions with our staging in an attempt to get across the point that we pulled out of the scene. My question is, do you think that the staging in the scenes is something that Shakespeare was particularly concerned about? Or do you think that the meaning from his play's were meant to come more-so out of his words as opposed to visual tricks? | | | 8 | 9/25/2011 11:17 AM | Orsino's love From what i have gathered Orsino isn't in love with Olivia but he is more so in love with being in love. He isn't drooling over Olivia he is more so drooling over the thought of him and Olivia. It seems as though Olivia fits his ideal "type", Orsino is the powerful Llyrian nobleman and Olivia is a wealthy, beautiful, noble Llyrian lady. | | | 1 | 9/25/2011 11:14 AM | Olivia's encounter with the Clown Olivia keeps telling the guards to 'Take away this fool' and the clown keeps saying, 'Yes, take her away'. Olivia thinks she is asking for the guards to take the clown away but the Clown is pointing out that he is not the fool, she is. Why? Because she is mourning her brother's loss, even though he is supposedly in heaven. The clown says that it is no use mourning someone if they are already where they belong, in heaven. It's pointless! And that because she is 'mourning' his death for so long [even if there are alternate motives for her locking herself away for 7 yrs...*cough cough* Orsino *cough cough*] she is the fool who should be taken away [back to the real world, to reality, to whatever problems she is hiding from so she can finally answer them and get on with her life]. | | | 1 | 9/25/2011 11:12 AM | Maria: The Second Storyline Within dramatic productions there is often the concept of first string and second string storylines. These parallel stories often echo or reverberate each others themes. Since Twelfth Night is a comedy, we know everyone will end up married, in love, pleased (mostly). So the foreshadowing surronding Maria is interesting to say the least. Her strange relationship, her come on, come off, flirting with the knight, seems to indicate that for her too lies hapiness in the future.
But what does this say about Shakespeare's class views?
Alot.
Because she is a handmaiden, he, at least, is something of a knight.
IS Shakespeare using bawdy humor to slip in an appeal to equality? | | | 11 | 9/25/2011 10:46 AM | Giving up so easily? When olivia's brother died, she mentioned that she will not come out of her room for 7 years and has ZERO intentions of dating. So when Orsino sends for her love, it is not returned. But why when Cesario comes in to talk to Olivia does she give in so easily? It made me like her charechter less. She seemed to have this noble sadness about losing her beloved brother, but when this eunich comes in, she falls for him. does this prove that people just have no self restraint when it comes to love? | | | 1 | 9/25/2011 1:23 AM | Lost Brothers I noticed that both Olivia and Viola recently lost their brothers. (As far as Viola knows anyways.) Olivia doesn't know anything about Viola of course but I think since Viola knows that Olivia recently lost her brother too it creates a sort of bond between them. While Olivia falls completely in love with "Cersario," Viola has her eyes on Orsino. Although she is not in love with Olivia, she certainly has some sort of sympathy towards her, I think that can be proven in the fact that she does not lie to her in order to get her away from the Duke. | | | 10 | 9/25/2011 12:59 AM | Sexual innuendos! So, here we are, only two pages into the masterpiece that is "Twelfth Night" and sexual innuendos are alllll over the place! Talking about how the Duke wants to "Fulfill Olivia with one golden prince" or how the "golden shaft will pierce her"(Not verbatim. I don't have the book with me, sorrryyy) has led me to question the greatness that "is" Shakespeare! Shakespeare was the most popular playwright in his day, because he appealed to the populous. What is Shakespeare if not a medieval Tyler Perry? Honestly, we question the legitimacy of movies of today, while we hold the works of Shakespeare on this gilded pedestal! I don't understand it! It's not because I am anti-Shakespeare, because believe me, I can get down to some Hamlet, but I think that Shakespeare's works were held on much too high a pedestal. William Shakespeare was after all, a man. A living, breathing, mortal man, who found his niche in society and exploited it, becoming a very well-renowned playwright. Once again, I am not saying that his works suck, but I do hope to remind everyone that he was a man after all! | | | 7 | 9/25/2011 12:55 AM | Unusual Shakespeare play to me After thinking about some of the Shakespeare plays that I have already read, I have realized that twelfth night is very different from the others. I have never read one of his plays where there is so many sexual jokes and where there is so much playing around with genders. For instance Viola is a girl pretending to be a boy and in the play Viola is actually played by a boy. Also, it seems like almost everybody in the play is hitting on everybody else no matter what the gender. This play seems like such a huge jumbled mess of misguided love. The other Shakespeare plays that I have read were much more serious and full of real love, where one lover would even die for the other. It is possible that the reason for this is different time periods or that there was a changing audience where the poor people wanted some comedy, like Mr. Chisnell was saying.I just find it very interesting how this play is different from the others. | | | 5 | 9/25/2011 12:50 AM | Termonology When we first started reading Twelfth Night, we discussed the whole sexual innuendos and such. When imagery or language was used to reference the male anatomy, we all just about knew that the term used to describe such things was "phallic". When Mr. Chisnell asked if anyone knew the girl equivalent, that knowledge was far less know. Why did a group of teenagers know the first term, but not the second (yonic)? I would bet that even most adults would have followed suit in only knowing the male version as well. I would like to see what other people believe is the reason for this sort of ignorance towards the female version of the word. Maybe an arguably male dominated world has us only focused on the masculine version? Maybe the fact that woman's sexuality has for a long time been ignored or denied existence altogether has led to words having any relation to the topic becoming unused and/or less common? I'm curious to know everyone's thoughts. | | | 12 | 9/25/2011 12:44 AM | Shakespeare's innuendos vs. modern day I find it funny how so many people nowadays disapprove of the use of sexual innuendos in literature, movies, and media in general. Yet, here's a renowned playwright whom many respect and believe to be the epitome of great literature... who is dropping dirty jokes every other line! So, here's my question.
Why is it that we applaud Shakespeare for his works, but condemn innuendos used in modern day? Why does he get the upper hand in this situation? Is Shakespeare any different from a teenage boy in the hallways making jokes about genitalia? | | | 12 | 9/25/2011 12:16 AM | Shakespeare in General I have only read 2 of Shakespeares works completely, which were Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet, and in Drama Club we put on the performance of a Midsummer Night's Dream. While all of the plays were enjoyable for the most part, they just had their down moments. Some parts of Hamlet were so boring and confusing I debated whether to skip them over completely, but with a fear of missing key information in the text. Shakespeare has a way of telling an entire sub-story in one simple line in his plays, and in skipping over them you can miss valid pieces of information. I had never heard of Twelfth Night before Mr. Chisnell brought it up in class, and am wondering if it is like Shakespeare's traditional works, or does it shy away from that and appeal to different readers? |
|
|
|
|
|
|