| | 9 | 5/1/2011 8:44 PM | Mr Honda I've been wondering why kumikos father made his one stipulation to their marriage being seeing mr Honda the spirit possession man. Why would either of them ever need to see him!? And why would kumikos family always go to see him? Why are there so many mystical and odd spiritual encounters? I find it strange how into spirits people are in this book. |
| | 16 | 5/1/2011 8:30 PM | The Well When both Mamiiya and Toru are in the bottom of the well the beauty and mystery of the situation outweighs the scariness of it in Murakami's imagery. When they are down there it seems to be that they can think very clearly, and I think thats why Toru likes it down there. he can get free of all distractions and really think. Besides the well drawing a connection between Toru and Mamiya, why did Murakami put the well in both of their lives? |
| | 11 | 5/1/2011 8:01 PM | both books- flow and yin/yang i dont see much of a difference between yin/yang and flow... isnt the flow of life and opposite things with similar cores essentially yin and yang? will someone please clear this up for me |
| | 3 | 5/1/2011 7:20 PM | Motifs Okay, trying to figure out all meanings of a motif in a book are challenging. In KoS, I figured the main reasons water is important in the book is that it's either to symbolize purification or to show danger.. but not so much the latter. However. I am really bad at trying to figure out what things mean, because, knowing what I do, it could actually mean anything.. possibly everything, but moreso on one focus. I feel dumb because I read a book and I just see it for how it is and then I see people bring up something I didn't think meant anything but actually means like the biggest focus in the book. It could be like the smallest sentence in the book. or a simple phrase like, "I'll be in hot water." How do I know if it means anything?? |
| | 1 | 5/1/2011 5:31 PM | Connection to Art Previously, there was a discussion about art on the boards and whether or not a musical piece is the same after it has been redone by another person. In KoS, Oshima gives his view of the music of Schubert's sonatas. Oshima says, "Play it through the way it is and it's flat and tasteless...extra devices destroy the dignity of the piece..." (111). Oshima's view of music gives light to the controversy regarding remixes and remakes of music. If a person just plays an instrument in a piece almost the same way, it is like the original; if the person adds devices, it can destroy the dignity. Oshima further says that, "all the performances are imperfect" and that is what stimulates your consciousness (111). If everything was perfect, I suppose you wouldn't have to think much would you? Imperfect music encourages thinking and sometimes remakes. |
| | 6 | 5/1/2011 5:24 PM | KoS - Nakata's teacher I was rereading the part in KoS where the teacher sends a letter to the professor about what really happened up on the hill when all of her students fainted. Near the end of the letter, she talks about having lost her boyfriend in the war. Oshima also tells Kafka about how Ms. Saeki's boyfriend was killed. So I was wondering...could the teacher and Ms. Saeki be the same person? I realize there is a big age discrepancy, but Ms. Saeki talks about being caught in the past, and then there's the part about her not aging as normal people do. If they are the same person, It would make more sence as to why Nakata and Saeki have some sort of connection (1/2 shadows)... |
| | 2 | 5/1/2011 5:15 PM | Fate I'm pretty sure that fate is evident in both books. It is Kafka's fate that drives his story, in fact I think all characters are driven by fate in the Kafka on the Shore. My question is, does anyone think that fate really exists or is it something of fiction? I mean there isn't really any proof of it either way, so I really want to know. |
| | 5 | 5/1/2011 4:20 PM | "I" Chisnell told us that there are three different ways to use the word I in Japanese language. Watakushi and Watashi are used when someone is formally talking to someone, like a collegue, friends, or family, and Boku is used when speaking in intimacy, like to a lover or to a diary. When Toru is talking to Kumiko, he always uses Watakushi to have conversations. Why would he use that to talk to his wife? It is supposed to be used when talking to a lover, and being married to Kumiko you would think he would talk to her in a more intimate manner. I think it's fishy that he doesn't talk to her like any other person would talk to their spouse, especially because Kumiko never wants to talk to Toru and barely cares what he does when she's not around. It's weird how other cultures use words we use all the time in different ways in different settings. Knowing that he addresses himself like this in front of Kumiko obviously shows something missing within the relationship. |
| | 1 | 5/1/2011 4:13 PM | My Nasty Spider Epiphany So. I am sitting in my room, minding my business, when a VERY scary GIANT spider runs into my room. I am terrified of spiders, and refuse to touch them or come into any sort of contact with the nasty creatures. Anywho, it ran under my bed when my dad tried to kill it and I refused to get off of my chair until he killed it, even though it was nowhere in sight. 15 minutes later and I'm still screaming bloody murder because if I put my feet on the floor the spider is obviously going to attack me. Long story short, my dad finally killed it. But during my minutes of fright I had a realization. If I didn't see that spider, I would not be flinching at every slight movement in my room. If you don't see it, it doesn't matter. If Cinnamon doesn't know his exact history it doesn't matter, as long as he has something to look back on. I don't know if this makes complete sense, but it helped me understand what Chisnell has been explaining the past few weeks. (: |
| | 7 | 5/1/2011 4:04 PM | WUB- Lieutenant Mamiya's story Aside from the extremely grotesque part about the man being skinned, I found the part about Honda's prediction very interesting. He said that Mamiyo would not die on the Asian continent. In a way this was a great relief for Mamiyo because he was assured that he would survive anything, but it also left him alone. He never married and to the present day has lived a life of solitude. I think that this part of the story shows how mysterious and influential of a man Honda was. Honda was able to rescue Mamiyo as well advise Kumiko and Toru on their marriage. After finishing Mamiyo's story, it left me thinking about how Honda has these impossible powers to predict people's lives as well as predict when he's in danger... Is he psychic or what? |
| | 15 | 5/1/2011 3:55 PM | Phone sex lady-WUBC Since we first started discussing Wind-up we started talking about the Phone Sex Lady. Ever since then we have brought her up a couple more times. I've been wondering lately (I haven't quite finished the book) do we ever find out who she is? |
| | 7 | 5/1/2011 3:23 PM | WUBC- Murakami I've noticed the endless pages of descriptions in the novel thus far. Sometimes, I think they're a little excessive. What I find interesting is that there can be pages upon pages of long descriptions of feelings, settings and such, but somehow it's not enough to exactly know what is happening. Somehow everything important is glanced over, while the smallest things have all the focus. Maybe Murakami is making a statement about how we spend the majority of our time focusing on small, useless things that don't help us solve our problems or that don't matter rather than actually taking a look around. But I haven't decided yet if I actually believe that is his intent in the novel |
| | 8 | 5/1/2011 3:17 PM | Malta and Creta These names are puzzling me. Why would they name themselves after islands? Japan is an island, could that have something to do with it? Or is it Malta's obsession with water from different places that makes her want to change her name, as well as her sister's for business purposes? I also think it's funny that Napoleon was exiled there... |
| | 4 | 5/1/2011 3:11 PM | Toru and all his woman Toru seems to connect with all these woman and they all wan him and they just want him to listen. The phone sex lady aka Rhonda says she can get to know him in only 10 minutes and creta was raped "defiled" and may is broken and mamiya although a man sought Toru for help listening to his torture stories and Kumiko is broken with her family history. They all seek Toru and I can't really understand why? He doesn't really even talk. He barely can hold a conversation it's like the woman are only talking to themselves. He doesn't offer any useful Advice it's always just awkward responses like oh I'm sorry or something like that. |
| | 2 | 5/1/2011 1:51 PM | KoS - After Chapter 40 SPOILERS At the point where Nakata seems to finally be on the verge of making some progress towards "being normal" he ends up dying. Hoshino figures that Nakata might have had to pass on so that he could be normal. Interestingly, this happened probably at the exact moment when Ms. Saeki died. I also noticed that she mentions having tried at one point to live married - possibly with Kafka's father - only to run away soon after...and so all the characters in this book - specifically Nakata, Kafka, and Ms. Saeiki - are directly connected in many ways (true to the explanation on the back cover). |
| | 6 | 5/1/2011 1:45 PM | Oshima's Pencil The first chapter in which Oshima is introduced, most of his actions revolve around the pencil that he holds. As soon as I finished the chapter, I decided it had to be a symbol. After talking to another person who had read the entire book (I'll save the details of the conversation to save you all from spoilers), I theorized that the pencil is a phallic symbol. Did anyone else come to that conclusion? |
| | 0 | 5/1/2011 1:45 PM | The Forest Kafka is tracking his way through the forest and he meets the two soldiers that disappeared a while back. They ask him if he wants to enter into a different world of sorts. Immediately he says yes. Kafka doesn't even think about it and that is what puzzles me the most. Maybe because he doesn't have anything that he's leaving or going back too. |
| | 6 | 5/1/2011 1:33 PM | Nakata's earlier days After finishing the book and reflecting I was wondering if it wasn't the teacher's abuse that had brought on Nakata's peculiar ways but rather Miss. Saeki's attempt at opening the stone. I could be wrong but the times seem close but a little bit hazy. What if that had altered Nakata's brain to where he was "on the edge of the world" like toro explains to Hoshino later on. Because it never states that they forced him to try and gain any knowledge back. Just simply speculation with the inconclusive end. |
| | 8 | 5/1/2011 1:26 PM | Norobu "splitting" creat's soul in half When Creta explains to Toru that Norboru had split her soul in half when he raped her makes me wonder. Because we were talking about the soul being in the stomach in Japanese theory, and making observations on how much Creta and Kumiko are actually similar, and with Kumiko not wanting to talk about her abortion and how it didn't feel real, makes me think that Noboru maybe got Creta pregnant during the rape, and her soul was split when she had the abortion, like Kumiko. I like making up scenarios because it's more fun... But I don't see how Noboru could technically "rape" Creta if she was a prostitute, considering that it's her job to have sex, and other than the idea of abortion, why it would split her soul. Her soul was "emptied" out after her rape, and it was the same sort of description May had when describing the disection she would like to do on a ball of death. I think that the symbol of the soul is something deeper than I am thinking, but because it is an unbelievable symbol, I'm having trouble grasping the meaning of "splitting the soul". |
| | 10 | 5/1/2011 12:58 PM | WUBC- Return of the cat So the cat came back which I found surprising because in order for the cat to come back according to Malta, something had to change. I don't really see how Toru has changed his life. He hasn't really moved on from Kumiko because he is still searching for her. I think the name change of the cat from Noboru Wataya to Mackerel symbolizes that Toru is thankful for someone from his past "happy" life with Kumiko to return therefore he has to change the cat's name in order to insure that the cat is not related to Noboru, which would cause Toru to think of Noboru and how Noboru lied about Kumiko. |
| | 3 | 5/1/2011 12:54 PM | Cinnamon and Nutmeg I know it's kind of late in the game, but I think it's important to address Cinnamon and Nutmeg. From the get-go, they are an odd pair, and when Toru goes into their office, their behavior is bizarre to say the least. (It's also slightly bizarre that Toru justs allos himself to be guided through these weird proceedings.) I also find it suspect that we don't learn their actual names, despite the fact that they play a central part in the novel. Finally, Toru finds what his life story on Nutmeg's computer; is Toru's story influenced by Nutmeg, or merely observed from afar? |
| | 5 | 5/1/2011 12:48 PM | Kanos eyes On Pg 38 Toru describes Kanos eyes as lacking in depth and describes her as mysterious and mystical. I've been thinking of the nature of Kano and torus meeting and how it too is lacking depth. Kano claims to be wanting to talk about his cat but yet says nothing beneficial about his cat... Why did she call the meeting in the first place?! |
| | 0 | 5/1/2011 12:37 PM | Creta Kano pregnant? Is Creta Kano pregnant? Or rather - WAS she pregnant? I know that Creta has the ability to consciously slip into Toru's dreams, so it's conceivable that Malta could do the same, in order to tell Toru that he made a child with Creta. Also, do you guys think that Corsica represents the child that was aborted by Kumiko? |
| | 9 | 5/1/2011 11:31 AM | Creta and Toru I can't really decide if Creta and Toru are actually attracted to each other. Creta has her whole "prostitute of the mind" bit while Toru keeps thinking about her his dreams. She also just shows up in bed with him, completely nude. I'm thinking that maybe since they have had the physical relationship of having sex in Toru's dreams, Creta wants to have an intimate emotional relationship as well, so she does this by telling her inner secrets to Toru and wearing his wife's clothes and making him breakfast. |
| | 2 | 5/1/2011 11:18 AM | WUB- the actual bird So I noticed that reading into book two the wind up bird is hardly mentioned until Toru himself thinks of it while in the well. He knows that the wind up bird needs to wind up the spring for people to keep living almost. I just found it interesting that the actual wind up bird hasn't been mentioned in a while, perhaps because of Toru's messy life? |
| | 0 | 5/1/2011 10:53 AM | Nakata and Tabula Rasa Is Nakata's blank mind similar to Locke's Tabula Rasa theory? I understand that Nakata still has opinions and is still knowledgeable when it comes to certain things (like cats and furniture.) But is he impressionable and pliable like all humans begin as in Locke's blank slate theory? |
| | 8 | 5/1/2011 10:41 AM | Dream of Sakura This scene is so abstract in the sense that Kafka is dreaming and enters into Sakura's dream. Kafka forces himself upon Sakura, however I don't think that is out of pure sexual desire. Yes, people do enjoy sex, but Kafka was forced to do this because it has already been written. By that I mean that the prophesy had been laid out before him by his father, and he succumbs to it. |
| | 10 | 5/1/2011 9:49 AM | BOTH BOOKS - faste and flow connection I have been told that Fate is a present factor in KAFKA. In WUBC Flow is a present factor. I believe that fate and flow are connected. Basically in WUBC following the flow leads you to the correct fate. If you resist the flow, it can be distructive on your fate. |
| | 11 | 5/1/2011 9:43 AM | WUBC- Toru and May; End of Book 2 May asks Toru if he's mad at her, and he says he doesn't know. I think that's really strange because what does he have to be mad at her about? I mean, she did close the well and take the ladder, but he didn't seem to mind then, and he still doesn;t seem to mind now. But he still says that he's "not sure" and that he has too many other things to worry about than that. But why didn;t he just say no? And on a separate note, he says to May "Great Bikini." Which I just though was extremely weird, I think that's the first instance of tangible sexuality between the two. and plus she's sixteen. I don;t exactly think he was admiring just the bikini, but maybe May. But you never know with Toru, because he seems not to care about things like that. Like with the Phone Sex lady, he didn't seem to be bothered by her at all. |
| | 12 | 5/1/2011 9:39 AM | Kumikos revenge In kumikos family she was forced to live her dead sister life. She found her brother masturbating to her dead sisters clothes and I feel like Noburo as well as her family really broke her. Maybe her cheating on toru was her way of getting back at the world. She wants so desperately to resolve her emotional issues but I don't think she understands how to. Kumiko and Torus relationship is clearly broken and she has no intentions of fixing it. |
| | 9 | 5/1/2011 9:38 AM | people watching turns into begging? Toru initially was simply people watching on that bench, until that one lady saw him once the first time he was doing this and then a year later she saw him again and stopped to talk. She asked him if he needed money the first time and Toru said no, now much later Toru decides he does need money. Nothing has changed financially from the first to the second encounter, but now he has decided he needs to buy the property that the well was in. I may just be thinking too practical here...but why wouldn't he use money for living expenses since he has no job..instead of buying land? I understand that the well is on that land and everything..but still. |
| | 7 | 5/1/2011 9:02 AM | WUBC- Kumiko decides to kill Noboru I found this to be really surprising because following Kumiko's leave from Toru, Noboru made it seem like Kumiko had taken his side when really in Kumiko's final letter she has been under his "spell". She has become a replacement of her sister for Noboru to control. She said he has defiled her and her sister (as well as Creta) and has used her so she decides to kill him. The taking of the blame surprised me even more. She wants to stay in jail to hide from everyone who will judge her... in the jail she is safe. |
| | 11 | 5/1/2011 9:01 AM | Smiling We talked about this in class but I still don't truly understand. When Toru fought that man in the ally he says his mind tells him to stop but he physically couldnt and how their was two of him and the one of him couldn't stop the other. That's weird... Ha but the part that confused me the most is why the man laying on the ground almost dead is smiling? Some said he was Kay crazy or maybe toru was just insane and seeing him smile and just wanted to keep hitting him. But I'm not sure I don't think the guy was insane or anything like that but I don't understand why'd he smile... You're dying and getting beaten repeatedly in the face and you smile? Idk just doesn't make too much sense to me. shannah7@chisnell.com |
| | 10 | 5/1/2011 8:49 AM | Just a thought about toru So Toru had a really hard time finding characteristics to describe himself yet he is always finding characteristics for other people. He actually defines and describes other people by characteristics he finds about them. Do you think people go to toru because he can help them define themselves? Like to help them heal and mend their brokeness? |
| | 7 | 5/1/2011 3:54 AM | Hoshino and Nakata I love this relationship very much. They are not only adorable but also kind of a contradiction. Nakata though can not read or write or do anything that normally would measure intelligence. But he has abilities and thought processes that are way beyond anything Hoshino has ever thought of. It is a funny contradiction that Nakata raises really obscure but brilliant questions, like can nothing accumulate. Murkami I believe planted this possibly to display the complexities of human intelligence. |
| | 6 | 5/1/2011 3:41 AM | Gross Worm Thing After Nakata dies and that nasty worm thing crawls out of him, I was seriously confused as to what this creature could be. It was completely immune to Hoshino's attacks and it was basically indestructible. Since I never get my questions about this book answered I am not getting my hopes up for an explanation, but I would really like to know what it symbolizes. Maybe the evil thing part of him that came out when he killed Johnnie Walker? |
| | 7 | 4/30/2011 11:26 PM | What if. What if, in KoS, instead of fate actually being involved (which I'm not saying it's not still a major theme in the book), but what if what his father said to him was stuck in Kafka's head... Meaning, since his father said, he believed it was going to happen, so he just looked for people (considering pretty much every girl gave him a hard on) to just get it over with. Which would really take away from the book |
| | 12 | 4/30/2011 10:31 PM | Noboru Wataya In the sixth chapter, I was really interested to read about Noboru. I'm still really curious as to who he really is, though. Toru talks about Noboru in such a hateful way ("Ok, let's face it. I hated the guy." < I really liked this quote hah). Noboru seemed quite arrogant after he became famous, especially towards Toru. Maybe it was because someone wastaking his sister away from him, but Noboru was just really a huge asshole. When Toru is trying to have a serious conversation with Noboru, "he seemed to be thinking of something else," instead of listening to Toru. I don't like Noboru! |
| | 8 | 4/30/2011 10:16 PM | Boy Named Crow That whole chapter was really really odd to me. I didn't really understand who Crow was and how he was suddenly a bird. But I was thinking that was either Colonel Sanders or Johnnie Walker because of the talk to the flutes, but the dress was confusing. When he was talking about limbo and good and evil, I ventured to think what if that land in the forest was limbo between Heaven and Hell. "This flute is beyond any world's standards of good and evil, love or hate." This quote stood out to me, any thoughts? |
| | 10 | 4/30/2011 10:04 PM | WUBC- bird So, the Wind up Bird is an obvious symbol. I mean, hello, it's in the title. But it's funny the times that it shows up. Often times it's very random and sudden. Like one sentance out of Toru's train of thought will randomly be like "I heard the Wind up Bird." And then he just stops hearing it. It's weird. I just wondered if anyone had opinions on this. |
| | 5 | 4/30/2011 7:25 PM | p.s. going along with the whole death idea, I just re-read the part where May and Toru do the survey for the toupee company and once again the idea of death was used as a symbol for the freedom of the soul or flow. May suggests that men wear toupees because their afraid of dying, thus a toupee, like the stone bird, is representative of a stoppage of flow. |
| | 6 | 4/30/2011 5:03 PM | Creta's Child "Creta Kano's baby's name is Corsica" "half the baby's father was me, while the other half was Lieutenant Mamiya." I'm confused at this point. I had thought that both of these final encounters with the two sisters only occurred in Toru's dreams....or were they in some way real, and Creta does have a child? Also, again with the link between Toru and Mamiya, who I think are parallels throughout the novel. But is there something more that both would be a father to her child? I feel like this is definitely significant, but I don't understand this part. |
| | 10 | 4/29/2011 4:14 PM | Kumiko's perfume :O Kumiko is one sneaky wife. Wearing a new perfume and then not saying anything to Toru when he clearly mentions something about it to her and walking out the door is awfully suspicious. Then when Toru is doing his housework he finds the little gold box with yellow ribbon where the perfume would fit, and the perfume was in Kumiko's makeup cabinet. Althought Toru thinks about what is probably the truth about Kumiko, that she is having some sort of affair and the man she is seeing got her this nice smelling perfume, but then quickly rules it out, thinking to himself that it could have been something to do with "women trouble" at the office. Teetering back and forth on the idea, Toru somewhat gives up on it, because he says that he has secrets too. I think that Toru is afraid of confrontation; I know for a fact that if my husband was wearing new colonge and I found everything Toru did I would be livid, but Toru doesn't seem to think as deeply as any other spouse would. Confronting Kumiko about it would probably start a fight, and start another problem for his marriage that he wants to keep quiet (keep in mind I haven't read much after this yet!!). I definately think that Kumiko is either having an affair with someone at the office, like her boss for some more money, or she is simply hiding the fact that she's cheating on him with someone else. I think she's a shady figure. |
| | 7 | 4/25/2011 8:36 PM | Torus outrage Toru takes out his anger on the man in the bar because that night Kumiko got an abortion and toru was upset about it. What I l was noticing was that Kumiko was pregnant with torus baby which a very personally and emotionally connection that two people hold and she just kills it. Symbolizing her lack of care she has with her relationship with Toru. They never talked about the abortion after it happened and I feel like toru who never normally talks about anything realized FINALLY it wasn't fair and it impacted him. The flow changed. He nearly kills the man and then he keeps the bat? WTF what made Toru change? He finally realizes that that wasn't fair and it upset him and the only thing he can take it out on is this random guy. |
| | 3 | 4/25/2011 5:29 PM | Kafka and Nakata In class we talked about how the chapters about Kafka and Nakata are sort of two different stories that were put together in KoS. As I re-read the novel, I pick up more similarities that I previously missed. Early in the novel, Kafka wakes up with blood on his shirt near the area that he fell asleep at and he had no memory of what happened. In the beginning of chapter 18, Nakata wakes up in the empty lot but he woke up without being covered in blood, and had a vivid memory of what happened. It seems like these two perspectives are different, yet they coincide. Kafka fulfills his prophesy without having any recollection, while Nakata kills Johnnie Walker and is not believed by the officer, even though it happened. Any thoughts? |
| | 1 | 4/25/2011 4:02 PM | Intersting I have this dictionary.com app on my phone, and every day at 1 it sends a notification, alerting me as to what the new "word of the day" is. Usually, this daily occurrence annoys the hell out of me, but today it was rather interesting. When i turned my phone on, as I picked up WUBC, the word "yin" appeared on my screen. It mentioned the balance between good and evil, feminine and masculine. What a coincidence! |
| | 1 | 4/24/2011 8:16 PM | WUBC Death So we've determined the importance of flow and the correlation between the consistency of this flow and various objects and ideas. The flow is stopped in the alley behind the Okada's house, and it seems to come to a complete halt at the abandon house where a number of people have encountered trouble. When talking to his uncle, Toru discovers that every past resident of the abandon home has taken their own lives due to the stagnation and destruction of their personal flow. In these cases death was the liberator, the catalyst that freed the blocked flow. "Dying is the only way / for you to float free: / Nomonhan." Is Murakami implying that death is the only freedom from the constraints of reality? I guess he's right, if that is what he is actually saying, but I feel like this idea implies something else. Help me out |
| | 6 | 4/24/2011 6:50 PM | Unanswered Questions To me, the fact that in Kafka On The Shore has no real resolution at the end is frustrating. I want things to always be explained and wrapped up in the end, and this was not the case. I was still left with so many unanswered questions- what exactly is the entrance stone's purpose? who is Kafka's real mom? what he heck was up with that place in the woods?- and it is frustrating to me. I liked the book but I wish there was more of a definite ending. |
| | 3 | 4/24/2011 6:14 PM | Red vs. Green I noticed the comparison of red and green when Oshima and Kafka were driving to the cabin on the mountains. Oshima says, "Green's the color of a forest. Red's the color of blood" (112). I found it interesting that Oshima bought a green Miata when it is hard to see at night on the highway and how he likes green "even if it makes things more dangerous" (112). In Oshima's medical case, the red color seems represents his hemophilia. I noticed that the dangerous green could also represent the forest behind the cabin. Oshima warns Kafka not to wander too far into the forest because once you get lost, you "stay lost" which strongly reeks of danger. If the dangerous green represents the forest and the events that happen there, does the red just represent the bloodshed throughout the novel, like Kafka killing his father and Nakata murdering Johnnie Walker? |
| | 11 | 4/24/2011 12:22 PM | Kumiko In our class we were talking about how Kumiko, the phone sex lady (aka Rhonda) and Creda are all the same person. I understand that they are like not a single person but rather different variations or aspects of one person. But i don't understand how it works. Are they just different people in Torus life or are they only part of his imagination ?! And whats the purpose of them all being a different variation of the other? What does that provide!? |
| | 3 | 4/24/2011 11:36 AM | Colonel Sanders He describes himself as a concept, not a god or a human. The way he takes form is kind of interesting, since he chooses the identity of a pimp chicken man. For some reason, he helps Hoshino and Nakata find the entrance stone. Why is this "concept" helping them out, and how does he know so much? Also, Colonel Sanders has quite a few similarities to Johnnie Walker. |
| | 7 | 4/24/2011 11:03 AM | Nakata and Kawamura The conversation between these two is actually quite humorous. The difficulty that both of the two have understanding each other is relentless. Both of them had an accident when they were younger that caused them to be a bit slower than the average cat/human. Everything is mixed up until a smart siamese cat named Mimi walks up and gives Nakata what he needs. I enjoy the humor that Murakami intentionally or unintenionally displays here. |
| | 7 | 4/24/2011 10:57 AM | Just some questions I need help answering In class we were talking about how it's becoming odd how all the characters seem to be some others good or bad side. So in the case of Noburo, is Toru Noburos good side? Becaus we talks about ying and yong and how Noburo is the destroyer and Toru is the healer so would Noburo be torus bad side? |
| | 7 | 4/24/2011 5:36 AM | Talking to cats Nakata's amazing ability to communicate with cats is very intriguing. However, after killing Johnnie Walker (sp?) he loses his ability to talk with them. I have no theories or ideas as to why this could be, does anyone else? |
| | 3 | 4/23/2011 11:46 PM | WUBC- Toru Oddly enough, Creta wants Toru to go to Crete with her to live a new life together. He evades the question at first, confused as to why Creta wants to go with him of all people. I find it really interesting how Toru insists to Creta that it's okay that she wears Kumiko's clothing and even takes it as a payment for sleeping together, because "Kumiko said so." But the reason, or at least one of the reasons why Toru won't agree to go to Crete with her is because he has to talk to Kumiko to find out if their relationship is really over. So im wondering how much he actually believes from the note...or what he's really thinking. |
| | 3 | 4/23/2011 11:30 PM | WUBC-Similarities There has been a lot of discussion if Creta, the phone sex lady, and Kumiko are the same person. I think that there is a lot more than mere random similarities between the three. They’ve all had something taken from them, they all experience this sense of numbness, Creta and Kumiko are the same size in clothing, shoes, and height, and they’ve all had similar experiences. I think there is too much here to just say it’s a coincidence.
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| | 7 | 4/23/2011 10:39 PM | WUBC- Creta Kano When Creta tells her story of her time with Noboru, and she says a "thing" came out of her, I'm still not really sure what she means. I think later she describes it as a yoke or something. But I'm actually not really sure if it actually happened; I kind of feel like maybe he was exaggerating or being metaphorical...I have no idea |
| | 6 | 4/23/2011 10:20 PM | Autism I thought this was pretty interesting, the other day in class we were talking about Murakami's style of writing and the heavy detail that he employs when Jamie told us that, according to some research he had done the night before, Murakami was autistic. Now I'm not sure to what degree he is affected by autism, but I think this piece of knowledge really helps explain why he writes the way he does. I just thought I'd share this interesting piece of information, maybe it will help us better understand his writings. |
| | 7 | 4/23/2011 10:18 PM | Human connection (Both Books) So I'm partially taking this post from another one about Murakami's lack of setting description in his writing. (Now I haven't read Kos so if you wanna confirm this observation for that book please do) There arn't really any vivid descriptions of characters or places. I think this is because the characters, rather then searching for a connection to the world, or their place in life, are searching for connections with eachother. The setting details arn't needed, because it does not really matter where the human connections are made. Thoughts? |
| | 1 | 4/23/2011 8:33 PM | Purposes/Themes of Literature I really enjoyed the class discussion that we had on Thursday about WuB, when we were trying to get at what it meant for Toru finding out that he was a character in a book, and when we discussed how Cinnamon didn't have all facts, but kind of filled in some of the gaps with stories (one of the quotes we discussed: "fact may not be truth, and truth may not be factual.") The idea we kind of ended with, that basically, things aren't as important for what they are, as they are important for what they show, I thought was really interesting. because I think it makes a lot of sense: even if something (say, some literature) isn't factual, or some of it is made up, etc., it doesn't really matter, because what matters is what we get out of it (its purpose/theme). |
| | 0 | 4/23/2011 2:16 PM | Applying Themes to Our Lives Kind of following my previous post (relating to our class discussion of WuB) about how things aren't important for what they are or what they're about, but rather, what they show (their theme/purpose), another idea in our discussion that I also found very interesting is when Mr. Chisnell asked the question about why people get so defensive when you question or attack their favorite poem or book (or other piece of literature). It's not really about the literature itself, but because of the fact that people have taken its themes and lessons and applied them to their own lives, so they take it kind of as a personal attack (because it's kind of like you're attacking the way they look at things and the way they live their lives, and the values and things they see as important). When this idea was discussed in class, it reminded me of religion and/or the Bible (I'm not attacking any religion, nor promoting anything). But it made me think about how people sometimes get so offended and defensive when you attack or question the Bible or their beliefs. Because it may not be so much about what their beliefs are, or whether or not what is in the Bible is true, but rather, because you're attacking the way they have chosen to live their lives based around these things and the values, morals, or ideas they have taken from them. |
| | The Girl in the Green Scarf |
| | 8 | 4/23/2011 2:38 AM | WUBC - Confusion between reality and the dreamworld
In my class we reached a point in the discussion at which we asked, are the women characters in his head? Is Toru even alive? This compleely perplexed me! Now how am I to interpret the text? Is it all some wierd dream world or is Toru living in both reality and a dream? Are Komiko, the phone sex lady, and Malta all the same person? Or are they simply the split parts of one another materialized in the mind of Toru? I'm all mixed up, can anyone come to my rescue? |
| | 4 | 4/22/2011 10:00 PM | WUBC- Toru and Women Why are women constantly attracted to Toru? Even when he can't even help it. It seems like he only interacts with women in this novel. There's the phone sex lady, Creta who has some strange attraction to him, and May does as well. Then when he decides to observe people, a random woman comes up to him and offers him money. When he interacts with men, its contrasted with scenes like him and the guitar player who get into a fight. Or the real estate man who tells him that the land he wants to buy is too expensive for him and he'll have to wait, even though he advises not to buy it in the first place |
| | 1 | 4/22/2011 1:23 PM | KoS - entrance...to another world? The whole entrance stone thing is quite intriguing. Having Ms. Saeki opening it decades before the story takes place opens up a few possibilities. It leads me to believe that the Saeki that Kafka encounters on his journey through the woods is a part of her that went through to the "other side" when the stone was opened. It's also quite possibly Nakata's new home which he experiences as a normal person. Then there is Johnnie Walker, who most likely came to this place through death.But when I read the ending, the creature that comes through Nakata seems like it would be some kind of manifestation of Johnnie...and makes me wonder why it might have been trying to work its way towards the entrance. |
| | 1 | 4/22/2011 1:19 PM | Motifs Ive noticed a couple of the clear Motifs, but the one my group wanted to pick was choosen. Does anyone have any ideas or other motifs that they've noticed. Right now my group has choosen Scars/Marks, and I was just looking for other options. The similiarities between Murakami's books are lucent from what I've heard from other classmates, but making the connections is a tad more difficult since I have only read one of the books. |
| | 5 | 4/20/2011 4:17 PM | Societys flow In class we talked about whether society set the flow or rather did it block the flow? I was wondering others opioion on this because it's either that hondas advice to just follow the flow is to do what society wants of us or to listen to yourself and be who you are. In torus case I feel like he follows what he's told to do. He does everything he's told for instance when Kumiko called him and told him to meet with Kano about the cat he does exactly what he's told and goes and meets with her. I feel like it's really important to understand the origin and direction the flow has on order to understand the book and I'm having trouble cementing a concrete answer to the question. |
| | 4 | 4/17/2011 8:40 PM | Johnnie Walker Quite the abstract character right here. I don't care what kind of logic he says that there is in eating cat hearts, this man is mentally unstable. He does a good job at making Nakata show a side that he never knew that he had, but what good does that do hin, he's dead. When the murder file finally came up, there was no mention of all of the cat heads or weird tools that he owned. Something suspcious is going on, even though you could say that about the whole book... |
| | 9 | 4/17/2011 8:07 PM | Noboru's Fame I was really weirded out when i heard thatNoboru was famous. In the beginning, hearing about his rape, I thought he was just a creepy older man, but when i found out he was intellectual and good at debate, i was confused. I found it interesting, though, that they said he "seemed more relaxed in front of the camera". To me, this just makes me think that Noboru is quite fake, and no one really knows him. He feels more comfortable with a mask on and playing out who the cameras want him to be than he does in his own skin. Toru thought Noboru's opiniions "amounted to nothing more than a game," which is sad. Noboru was living a lie and I think he was losing himself in his fame. |
| | 7 | 4/17/2011 7:46 PM | Stagnation vs. Living Today in class we talked about tradition, and how its a cycle of stagnation and living. I think that this is what Honda told Toru that he had to do, he had to flow with the world around him, go up when it was time to go up and go down when it was time to go down. I think the beginning of the book is hard on Toru because he is not doing either, he is just staying still, stagnant, not changing anything about his life. |
| | 18 | 4/17/2011 7:42 PM | Sexual Tendencies I have noticed in Murakami's writing I have noticed there is that little tinge of sexual undertones in all short stories. The Little Green Monster, just wants to love the women, and simply is what I saw as almost a Freudian sexual subconscious. In the short stories there is the blind-fold and remarks about "what gets people off" like what turns them on. Or how in "The Window" there is that awkward tension with in the entire meeting that occurs. But Murakami finishes the story with "I wonder what would have happened if we would have slept together" We mused with the idea that what if they did and simply Murakami hid it with in the text. Is this simply his style or the Japanese style? |
| | 6 | 4/17/2011 7:32 PM | Kos Kafka As I am reading I am trying to map out the character Kafka. He says that he has been working out for the past few years to bulk up and prepare for when he runs away. Kafka says, "I've built a wall around me, never letting anybody inside and trying not to venture outside myself" (9). This seems contradictory due to the fact that he calls the girl he just met. Furthermore, Kafka says "My muscles were getting hard as steel, even as I grew more withdrawn and quiet" but then he says "there I am-naked and defenseless and totally confused" (10). Even though he seems strong on the outside, he knows deep down that who he is on the inside, is not what is portrayed by appearance. |
| | 1 | 4/17/2011 3:27 PM | Creta and kumikos similarities In the book it gives alot of similarities between Creta and Kumiko including their dress sizes, feeling numb/broken, noboru breaking them, and the image of Creta in kumikos dress on Pg 189. It's strange because Kumiko marries Toru after noboru breaks her and Creta seeks Toru after noboru rapes and breaks her. |
| | 7 | 4/17/2011 1:22 PM | Japanese Men and Creta/Kumiko Today Chisnell posed the question: When men take away the "self" (sense of being, etc.) from women, what is left for them? They just walk around being obedient little housewives doing what men tell them to do.
This question probably applies to those reading KoS as well as WUBC, so feel free to answer in the context of KoS.
The stereotype for Japanese men is this controlling and powerful, and in WUBC, Noboru Wataya is powerful and violent, a "destroyer", a foil to Toru, who would be a "healer" to these women. Noboru is the reason that Creta and Kumiko are broken, and they both (along with the other women in the book) seem to go to Toru to be "healed". |
| | 7 | 4/17/2011 12:00 PM | Toru's descriptions Someone in class Friday said that Toru describes things with little explanation or meaning, except for one dominant charactersitic (a.k.a. May's glasses, Creta's makeup, Malta's hat). I think that he doesn't have much definition in depth... only in certain things in apperance. This makes me think that Toru doesn't really know how to connect with anyone on any other level than apperance. On the outside, we see Toru as passive and obnoxious because he is so passive. But that's just the small thing we notice about Toru and that's our description of him. Even though he's not looking deep into others, we aren't looking deep enough into him... |
| | 1 | 4/17/2011 11:58 AM | KoS Parenthetical Statements I thought it was very clever when following Hoshino's opening of the entrance stone on page 312, the narrator suddenly inserts this little side note about the future in parentheses. I thought of it as an indication that what Colonel Sanders had been saying was true, that time was no longer balancing out and the opening of the entrance stone was sort of the first part in fixing this. When he opened the entrance stone, for the brief time it remains open time will be even more jumbled, things from the past, future, and present colliding. |
| | 9 | 4/17/2011 11:48 AM | The Well Craziness Alright, thanks to this scene, my confusion has pretty much reached a peak. I can't quite make sense of Toru's "dream that wasn't a dream". I thought it was his unconscious making connections while he was thinking in the well, and yet he comes out (by walking through a wall?) with the blue mark on his face that's the size of a baby's hand...At this point, I am frustrated and confused, and would love to hear what logic other people found from this that I am just missing. |
| | 2 | 4/17/2011 11:43 AM | KofS and Feminism While Kafka is on his first day of working at the Library he experience the two women who come to see thing from a womens perspective of public places in Japan. And when Oshima begins to debate with them, the truth about "him" comes out, which is vaguely weird and interesting. But while debating with the women he is debating the same items as we are, like the difference between a gender and a sex. And how they were struck by complexity of Oshimas sexual identity. Cool connection. |
| | 6 | 4/17/2011 11:31 AM | Oshima? Oshima reveals that he is a transvestite after his unpleasant discussion with two women that are in the library. This isn't exactly how it was phrased, but that's what he/she basically is. He is quite and interesting character now that I've found this out. Surprisingly Kafka likes Oshima even more now. I don't know if this is one of his weird sexual attractions or rather that Kafka is just glad to have made a friend and is in no position to judge. |
| | 6 | 4/17/2011 11:09 AM | To be alone is to be Free? KoS On pg. 34 Kafka said "I'm free, I remind myself...I'm all by myselg, totally free." What kind of freedom is it if he forgetshe has it? What exactly did he want to be free of/from? I also found it weird that to be "totally free" he had to be alone. Is he trying to free himself of family ties or any sort of relationships with people? |
| | 0 | 4/17/2011 11:03 AM | Murakami Interview I found this interview with Murakami online:
http://www.auriea.org/index.pl/Murakami_interview1
It was really interesting to read. Not all of the questions are about WUBC, many are about writing, but it includes Q&A about some of the ideas in WUBC, like when he wrote the scene at the beginning when Toru was cooking spaghetti and the phone rang, or when the soldier was skinned alive. |
| | 4 | 4/17/2011 10:55 AM | Colonel Sanders Not only was I creep-ed out by a pimp dressed up as the KFC mascot. But when him and Hoshino are talking it gets crazy. First he knows Hoshino's name but only by a "guess" by his baseball hat. After the "sex machine" has done its job. (another topic for later) Colonel goes from talking about a revelation to questioning Hoshino about god business. But also says he is not a person, which is puzzling because he is physically a human being. So I pondered whether he was just annoyed with Hoshino or that he was actually saying something very complex. I couldn't really figure him out at all. He was smart and complex but yet odd. |
| | 11 | 4/17/2011 10:15 AM | WUBC- Cheating or Not? I think that Kumiko is cheating on Toru. She starts coming home later and later every night and Toru notices these new earrings that he states she couldn’t buy with her own money because she couldn’t afford it. Their marriage seems distant and unconnected at times. Although Kumiko may be cheating on Toru I also think Toru may be unsatisfied with the relationship, that’s why he talks on the phone to the lady and stays with the 16 year old drop out student for so long. Maybe he is looking for something else as well. |
| | 2 | 4/17/2011 9:39 AM | The Cat The cat is an interesting character in WuB and i was confused as to why we didnt go into more detail about it on friday. What stands out to me is the connection between the cat and when the old man said that "good things cans tart off bad" and "bad things can start off good" (obviously not a direct quote from the book) but it seems as if it was a bad thing that the cat left at first, but led Toru to figure out so many things he was missing. |
| | 2 | 4/17/2011 9:22 AM | Stone bird in WUBC The stone bird seems to pop up a lot, and i'm beginning to really wonder what it represents. Murakami even names a chapter after it, "Flightless Bird"
Why did he use it in the title? Why did he call it the "flightless bird" when in the text he calls it the "stone bird"?
Some instances with the stone bird in the yard:
"When we crossed the yard, the stone bird was still glaring at the sky with its dry eyes." (32)
"The stone bird's shadow fell on the surrounding undergrowth, breaking apart."
"I had just shifted my gaze to the shadow of the stone bird when I sensed that someone was calling to me from behind."
"She pointed toward the vacant house, where the stone bird still spread its wings, the tall goldenrod still caught the early-summer sun, and the pigeon went on with its monotonous cooing atop the TV antenna."
"Sitting here in the garden like this, with no other people around, looking at the grass and the stone bird, whistling a tune (badly), I had the feeling that I had returned to my childhood. I was in a secret place where no one could see me. This put me in a quiet mood. I felt like throwing a stone- a small stone would be OK- at some target. The stone bird would be a good one."
Hm... why? |
| | 3 | 4/17/2011 9:20 AM | shocking revelations Toru has a habit of getting caught in the middle with women's personal issues. Two of the most disturbing in my opinion are when Kumiko tells Toru about Noboru masterbating to their dead sister's clothes and when Creta reveals her past-prostitute lifestyle. These stories do not phase Toru as they would to any other man, but I think that he holds back from saying anything because he doesn't want to get so deep into the subject. The potential link I think the two of them have is their broken souls; Kumiko living a horrible and forced childhood, and Creta living in pain and then complete numbness. The imbalance they have in their life is something psychological, and something deeper than Toru has the ability to understand or care. Maybe Kumiko and Creta have the same feeling of numbness, especially towards sex, like Creta has during her time as a prostitute and Kumiko's numbness towards Toru. Potentially same person?!?! |
| | 4 | 4/17/2011 9:01 AM | Wind Up Bird I don't know if this is something very obvious that I'm just missing, or something that other readers are confused about as well, but what exactly is the Wind Up Bird? I just don't know what it is, but I know that to understand the work I need to be able to wrap my head around this important idea, and yet I'm lost. |
| | 2 | 4/17/2011 3:52 AM | The unconcious children I was pretty surprised when this unnatural occurence happened in the forest. There didn't seem to be any explanation for what happened, until a couple chapters after. The teacher's sexual dreams and allusions definitly brought about some suspicion with her connection to the children's fainting. I feel like the psychological stability is what made the unconscious children wake up, and this is the reason why Nataka was unable to. He was trapped in this mysterious state for a couple weeks, and never would wake up the same. |
| | 2 | 4/17/2011 3:27 AM | catss Cats seem to be a overlapping theme in both of the murakami novels. i was wondering if the cats were any symbol for japanese culture or if its just a murakami style of writing. any thoughts? |
| | 7 | 4/16/2011 5:34 PM | Music I've noticed in WuB that Toru often mentions specific pieces of music. I'm not sure that these are some sort of clue towards understanding the deeper meaning of the work, but I thought it might be interesting to listen a moment to what Toru listens to. This is Rossini's The Thieving Magpie, which Toru is listening to on the radio while making spaghetti in the beginning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us_6fXZpt-c&playnext=1&list=PLC82F10AC07D1C265 |
| | 7 | 4/16/2011 2:42 PM | Toru & Kimuko I find their relationship to be interesting. They've been together for six years, and you can really tell how comfortable they are with each other. In my opinion, Toru is a good husband; cooking for Kimuko before she gets home and doing all of her duties, including looking for her cat. I felt bad for Toru when Kimuko yelled at him for buying the wrong toilet paper and tissue paper, but i think that may show that they're not as close as Toru would like to think. Although i don't think Toru is interested in other women, I think this may be foreshadowing something about problems they will have in their relationship in the future. |
| | 11 | 4/15/2011 8:20 PM | Torus close encounters I've been finding it very strange how Toru doesn't think getting close with other women is odd. Like with the young girl she is very odd and asks Toru weird questions and she touches his hand and gets really close to him while he was sitting. I just find it odd how close he let's people get to him when he's married. |
| | 10 | 4/15/2011 8:17 PM | WUBC- May She seems to me like a strange character. She is obviously very lonely with her parents not being in the picture at all and striving for someone to make a connection with. She says very strange things within the novel about death, and avoides personal space when talking to Toru. We had a discussion in class how he is “broken” and how the Buddhist term for that word was dukkha. The Buddhist describes that the world and most people are dukkha and I believe May is as well. What do you think? |
| | Princess of Barbies and Jewelry |
| | 4 | 4/14/2011 9:20 PM | KoS - Kafka's Sister Thing A recurring idea in Kafka on the Shore is that Kafka seems to want to have sex with anyone that may or may not be his sister. I don't know if we ever meet his sister, but whenever he encounters someone that could possibly be his sister, he has sexual fantasies about them. The most direct of these is when Sakura, for lack of a better term, gives him a handjob. In Chapter 11, Sakura is nurturing and "rests her cheek on [Kafka's] forehead," a harmless act, and then he "gets a hard-on right away." This then goes a bit further and after Kafka "comes, over and over, like crazy," both Sakura and Kafka admit that they were thinking about "how nice it'd be if [Sakura] was [Kafka's] real sister." |
| | 4 | 4/10/2011 7:00 PM | Conrad in WuB? There was one quote I came across in WuB that I wanted to bring up for discussion: "We can invest enormous time and energy in serious efforts to know another person, but in the end, how close are we able to come to that person's essence? We convince ourselves that we know the other person well, but do we really know anything important about anyone?" Right away, this made me think of Kurtz in HoD. Murakami is asking the same question here that Conrad does throughout his novel...thoughts? |
| | 10 | 4/10/2011 6:06 PM | Toru Toru is a very passive man so far. He lets people tell him what to do and he follows orders. To me it seems like he can't think for himself. He wants to strive to know himself and find who he truly is but at the same time he doesn't care? Idk i probably need help on how to understand Toru. |
| | 6 | 4/10/2011 5:53 PM | "External distinguishing characteristics" When Toru recieves the phone call from the mysterious woman about his cat, i found it interesting that he could not come up with ANY physical characteristics that set him apart from others. As physical appearance is not a heavy topic in this book, I wonder if the Japanese even value physcal qualities as important in other people. Ask someone what their distiguishing qualities they have, and usually they can come up with ONE. Toru absolutely cannot think of any to tell this woman. |
| | 7 | 4/10/2011 5:49 PM | Creta Kano I found the scene with Creta and Toru really interesting. Creta initially just did her job quickly and was about to leave, but then Toru convinced her to stay and tell her story. Then she repeatedly got up to leave, but never did as Toru convinced her to stay with various beverages or food. To me, this means that Creta really did just want someone to listen to her for a while, and just talk, but she kept going back to her professional bubble of protection. Eventually she actually did get up and leave and I think that it may have been because Toru's questions were getting too personal and her reaction may have been too emotional. |
| | 9 | 4/10/2011 5:45 PM | Kafka's Name If I'm not mistaken, Kafka isn't his real name, right? It's his fake name that he uses once he runs away. I know Kafka is one of his favorite writers, and that may have influenced him to use it, but "Kafka" isn't an easy name to pronounce in Japan. Sakura even points out how it's weird. Why would he pick a strange name that's hard to pronounce instead of using a common name? Wouldn't "Kafka" bring more attention to him? I guess it doesn't really matter why he chose it or not, but I just found it interesting. |
| | 1 | 4/10/2011 5:44 PM | Mr. Wind-Up Bird When Toru accepts the name "Mr. Wind-Up Bird" I believe he is taking on more than just a nickname. He is accepting the challenge of waking up every day and winding his spring, something that he has not done in quite some time. This nickname is a sort of call to action prompting Toru to do something different. |
| | 6 | 4/10/2011 5:23 PM | NOROBU, shame on you! Okay, I always find it disturbing when I read something that is completely inappropriate and is sexually inappropriate. In this case, Kumiko tells Toru that she once walked in on Noboru masterbating while smelling his dead sister's clothes... how sickening. I can't imagine what Kumiko is feeling at this time, being as young as she was and being that she had just recently come back to live with her parents and her brother and sister after so many essential years of growing up away from them and her sister just recently died of food poisoning, I find it pretty messed UP. Kumiko brings this up to Toru when she hears from her brother that he is running for office, and that she finds it strange, because she doesn't think he has the love for the people like he should? This I didn't understand, why she was bringing up something pretty disturbing and unrelated to an election. I also wonder what this has to do with the things he does to women so far in the novel (raping Creta Kano, not lasting long in a marriage, smelling his dead sister's clothes as something to masterbate to). Does he like to take advantage of the vulnerability women experience, like give him immense pleasure? Does he just have a weird and kinky way of getting turned on?; which in my opinion isn't in the kinky category anymore, it's rather in the crazy category. But I don't know why Kumiko would bring this up while regarding to his desicion to run for office.. |